375 - 425 Cats

TonyNJ · Post by **TonyNJ** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:48 pm

Anyone running 375 / 425 Cat 3208's? If so what is your cruise and gph burned.. Thanks

Post by **Admin** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:49 pm

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TonyNJ · Post by **TonyNJ** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:19 pm

Let me pose another question...Do you think its worth it to repower with rebuilt or a good pair of RTO's rather than going new? While I would love to put in a pair of 370 / 420 Yanmars it ain't gonna happen unless I can find a used pair. My reasoning is this....Although my 454's are running good right now sooner or later I'll have to eith rebuild or repower. New Crusaders will run about 26k + install costs. I have seen rebuilt Cats going for about 5k - 7k more (with gears and a 6mo warranty on parts). I know that the diesel install will be higher due to gas tank conversion, shafts, etc. but I'm not sure by how much. Also, once the conversion is done any future repower (yes, I plan on keeping the boat that long unless Merrits suddenly nosedive in price

will "just" be the engines and install costs. I'm also assuming 375 hp will give our boats an honest 25kt cruise. If I'm wrong on this please let me know. Also, according to Pascoe's article on the B33 he said that the 375 / 425 Cats were an option...Has anyone ever seen one? None of the ad's on Yachtworld list a B33 or B35 with 375 Cats. Thanks again.

robjb3 · Post by **robjb3** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:47 pm

A nice set of cats in a 33 sf would be sweet, but I can't help noticing the new breed of big block gas motors out there. The new crusader 8.1 (496 cubic inch) produce 385hp or 425hp depending on which model, and burn 25% less than my 454 crusaders. They also have any excellent (proven) fuel injection system and an ignition coil for each cylinder giving them diesel like reliability. So for about 25k you get new power with warrantees. When its time I'm slicking with gas crusaders. Even if they do burn more fuel you can buy a lot of fuel with the 50k you save.Rob

TonyNJ · Post by **TonyNJ** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:15 pm

The problem is that I'm not sure there would be a 50k difference in price IF I went with rebuilt diesels. I agree that for new diesels the bill would come to 85k or so but thats with 50-60k for the engines / gears (Yanmars)alone. Most of the rebuilt Cats are running about 18k with gears or about 10k more for the pair than the Crusaders. Add another 5k for a new (rebuilt) GenSet and 5k for running gear the difference is "only" 20k or so. The only added cost over a gas install is the tank conversion, unless I'm leaving something out. I'm also assuming the actual installation of the engines would be about the same for gas or diesel. Although to be honest...if the new Crusaders actually burn 25% less gas in real life, I agree that they would be a better choice. Tony

Post by **dougl33** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:53 pm

Tony, I think what Pascoe meant was that the 3208 would fit as a replacement engine because the 3208 was the diesel option for the 33's. He wasn't referring to the hp so much as he was the basic motor itself. The 320hp 3208 was the most ever offered by Bert in the SF. The FBC only got the 270hp verision because there wasn't enough room for the aftercooler (or something like that). Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 2:44 am

I have a `87 sf with 340 mercs and had been thinking along those same lines. A couple things I wanted to find out were, one, how much noise and soke do these make(in comparison to the Yanmars) Two, I`ve heard that these engines are not a replaceable sleeve engine. Does this mean that a rebuild is not recommended? I`ve noticed that most people tend to not rebuild these engines , instead they just repower.In other words, is a rebuild going to last? Frank

TonyNJ · Post by **TonyNJ** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:43 am

There is no problem with rebuilding parent bore blocks like the Cats. In fact, Pascoe has an article on this on his website. Cats are not known for being smokey but they will put out more smoke and noise than new Yanmars. They will also burn more fuel than the Yannies. Of course new 370 Yanmars cost about 56k with gears (64k for the 420's) Does anyone have an idea what our cruise speed would be with the 385hp Crusaders? I'm thinking 23-24knts Tony

Post by **dougl33** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:15 am

There's a guy on the Egg Harbor site who just put in a pair of Marine Power 8.1's(385hp). He's getting just about 30knots (29.77) @WOT at 4600rpm. This boat is much wider (14'5" to 12'6") and about 3K to 4K lbs heavier. He cruises at 21 knots. I emailed the guy and he seems very happy. He's under the impression that his boat is 10K lbs heavier than ours, but he's wrong. The Power Boat Guide lists the 37 Egg at 24K lbs and my 1986 Bertram catalog lists a gas FBC at 20.7K lbs (SF is 20.9K lbs). Given that the 35 Eggs with 454's (a lighter boat than our 33's) is generally slower than a 33 Bert with 454's, I'd have to say that 22-23 knots is not out of the question, maybe even 24. I'm dieing for someone to drop the 8.1's in and report back to us. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

Post by **dougl33** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:20 am

Sorry, just to clarify: He dropped the engines into a 1989 37 Egg. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

skyking · Post by **skyking** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:49 am

Hey Doug, My book sez my 82FBC w/350/454 Crusaders is 23,800 lbs.. I'm amazed at how much lighter all other boats are. With my 21 year old 454's I get about 18knots at 3200rpm's, and the fuel comsumption is over 35gals and hr. I'm guessing the new 8.1's 385hp FI engines will push me along with a less fuel burn. But check me if I'm wrong, but 32000rpms equals the same speed regardless of whats making the 32000rpm's. The question will be fuel burn. Now if my 19X20 props prove to be underpropped(the 385's can turn a bigger prop)then I should see an increase is speed at the same engine rpm and an increase in fuel burn to produce that extra power....coments wanted !!!! Thanks and Happy Holidays to all...Ken

Post by **dougl33** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 11:16 am

Ken, Thats interesting. Both my 1986 Catalog and the PowerBOat Guide have the same weight listed. I wonder if Bert changed the way they listed weights? Maybe from loaded with fuel and water to dry weight? The other benefit of the 8.1's is that they'll probably rev right up their fully rated rpms of 4600 right off the bat (depending on your propping). That would give you a cruise rpm range of between 3220 (70%) and 3680 (80%). I know that right now I cruise at 3000 rpms and I'm getting between 18-19 knots, depending on load conditions. I'll bet that with 385hp 8.1's on my current props, I'd probably get 22 or 23 knots with similar or less fuel burn at or around 3400 rpms. One of my neighbors is installing these in his 35 Egg next spring. I'll keep everyone updated. Hope everyone up here in the NE finally got themselves dug out! Go Pats! Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

lobsta1 · Post by **lobsta1** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 11:48 am

Guys, Dec 2003 issue of Power & Motoryacht has a review of the new Tiara 3200 with Crusader 8.1 MPI's. Boat weight is 12,500 dry. ZF tranny with 2.02:1 swinging 19x22 3 blade Nibral w/#3 cup. Best fuel was at 30.4 kts @ 36.4 gph. = (.74 nmpg) That's the 2nd boat review with similiar numbers that I've read recently. Repowering with the 8.1 would be nice, but I don't think our fuel burn will go down any. If I get .7 mpg @ 18 kts or 22 kts, it's still the same number of gallons. Just in a shorter time. Al 1978 33 FBC NITES OFF

skyking · Post by **skyking** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:43 pm

Al, I think your got it right. That Tiara is nearly half my weight. I'll bet that the FI 385HP's will be bit better in fuel burn, but by how much???? Even 10% for me is 3 to 4 gals and hour, not a whole hella alot for12K@engine. Just a guess, but I say a 20k. cruise would be 35+ gals/hr., or slightly better than 1/2mile to the gal with the 385HP FI motors. What do you guys think??? Happy Holidays to all !!!!

Post by **dougl33** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:55 pm

Here is the write up from the Egg site on the 1989 37 Egg: "We were going on vacation for 2 weeks when one engine broke a crankshaft, thankfully for out boat yard we were back in business within 5 days, thus salvaging our vacation plans. We repowered our 37 with 8.1's in August after I broke a crankshaft. I cruise at 3300rpm's at 21 knots not mph. I have run my boat from Mystic to Block Island with other 37's and we have verified results. The 8.1s are incredible motors, not quite as good as diesel but half way in between the old 454's and diesel. The new motors are computer driven so I was able to install B&G electronic controls, so I get exact fuel usage and rpm readings. Top rpm is limited to 4600, which is easily reached, at that speed I was doing 29.77 Knots full fuel and water and 6 people aboard. Fuel consumption was reduced from almost 40gph at 3400 to 29.8gph at 3300 with a 3-Knot faster speed. As I said earlier the article written is terrific but I hope more people will get my results if they repower. We have put almost 50 hours on the engines since repower and hope to do many more before we pack it in for the season. Everything was an exact fit even the holes for the motor mounts. All cables and exhaust hoses fit perfectly. Ps. We are running larger props than the other boat, but I have not determined yet what we should have for prop size." As you can see by his numbers, he's cruising at 3300rpm burning around 30 gph good for 21 knots. I know at 3300rpms my current engines are pushing me along at 22 or 23 knots. An interesting debate to be sure. With any luck it will be a few years before I need to go down that path. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth