3208T CAT's; 1W5900 Arrangment

banispeter · Post by **banispeter** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:10 pm

New to this forum - very comforting to know it is here. I have a 1983 33 FBC with 3208T's, and, want to move faster than I do. Motors have had TLC from big cat dealer up here since I bought it in 1998. I am the 3rd owner. Under 1000 hrs on motors. For some reason, the props on the 1 3/8 shafts are 20x22 Michigan Dynajets. Too small I know. But in the course of trying to figure out what to do about the speed issue (the cats run up to 2800 and a little more with no effort at all) the issue has become what HP are the motors. CAT people (whom I trust) tell me based on serial # and arrangement # the cats spec out at like 312 or so so they say they are the 320hp. Veterna dealer says that notwithstanding the arrangment # that Bertam didn't offer 320 hp in 1983 and what likley happened is Bertam changed the injectors and fule array to bring them down to 270's. That is my issue. I have looked into changing up to Twin Disc 5050A's from the 502's in there now, changing up to 1 3/4" shafts and have had it recoomened that the props be 21 x 27 3 blade nibrals to get more top end out of the boat. But, if the motors are 270 hp I am wasting my time and should just properly prop the boat. The issue of what the correct hp on these cats is is driving me crazy. Must be on the phone an hour a day with this. Any assistance/help out there? Peter L. Banis KNOT AGAIN Boston, MA

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:46 am

Peter, Glad to have you aboard. Unfortunately your problem is one of those that you can get a bunch of different opinions on and they'll all be right in ways. The cheapest easiest way to go is to have the props tweeked to just get max rpm at WOT. It is tempting to get new injectors to bring the motors up to a little more of their potential but in your other thread, you mentioned the bigger shafts as part of the whole deal and it would make sense that anything you do to make more HP is going to require bigger shafts, not to mention the piece of mind. Personally, if I were doing it, I would have the cat guys put in the bigger injectors and such , prop it correctly and then put in decent 1.5" shafts, which would be an easy job. If then, you want to play with gears and props, you could probably still use the 1.5" shafts and that way you could sort of stop when you're happy with performance or when your wallet gets tired, whichever comes first. Please keep us informed with your decision, and get busy. It will be warm before you know it. I'll be working all weekend on my cabin sole. Frank Price 87 SF "JEANNE CLAIRE' Rowley MA.

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:02 am

Peter, One more thought. Isn't there some way for them to identify the injectors you have now? Also, after all these years a new set if injectors would probably be worth investing in. I bet you'd see less smoke and noise at the very least.Tread boldly, man. Frank Price

banispeter · Post by **banispeter** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:06 am

Frank: Having breakfast with my CAT mechanic this morning and will let you know. The lowest and best (not the lowest) price quote I had on new 505A's, 1 3/4 shafts, new struts, etc was 19K. My X would then have a claim on my other nut! Let you know.

Post by **dougl33** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:39 am

Checking in from sunny (finally) Florida. Owners on this forum and others have had discussions with various Cat dealers and all came back with the same story that yes it was possible to juice up their 3208's, but that it was not worth the money to do so. I know for a fact that Charlie has had this conversation. Hopefully he'll chime in. I'm under the imperssion that its not as easy as dropping in bigger injectors. If the engines are still running, why not pull them out, sell them, and drop in a set of 315hp Yannies or 300hp Cummins. Both are much lighter than the Cats and would get you at least a 22 knot cruise. Gotta go get ready to see the Sox in Ft Myers. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:42 am

Peter, Wives are funny. They like riding around in the boat as long as it doesn't cost any more than the family car. They can't see the advantage of putting 19K into the boat, any more than they would put it into the family wagon. That's why they invented boaters math. It's not 19THOUSAND , it's 19 HUNDRED.Just drop a zero.You gotta keep that boating slush fund if you're going to keep the wife AND a boat. Just kidding of course but I find the single life works OK for me,when they start to complain about the money or the time spent on the boat, welll, it's time for a new girl friend.Call me shallow.... Frank Price

captgene · Post by **captgene** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:37 am

Peter, if you take out the 3208s let me know. Those things are bullet proof if they were cared for. And it sounds as if they were. personally , I would get the correct props on there and just run it. Gene Dugan

CB35 · Post by **CB35** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:45 am

My 3208's are 1984's in a 35B. They are stock 300HP Cats. My Cat man says i would gain no measurable increase by going to 320HP. He said the torque curve does not change enough. Charlie

sbeer · Post by **sbeer** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:07 am

Charlie, are yours turbo? From what I have found out is that under 300 hp they were all naturals. When they got above that they needed the turbo to generate the h.p. I have the 320hp's 3208t in my boat but it is a sportfish. In response to peter, the arrangments on mine are 1w5900 serial# 01z12289 running a 1.53 irm220a trans with 1 3/8 shafts pushing 21x22 3/4 props. I get at cruise 2350, 24kts and wot 2850, 29+kts [ never ran it long enough to get a solid fix, chicken] Hope this helps. Stu

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:54 am

Turbo 3208's range from 260 HP to 320 HP ratings. I've got the same 01Z block 3208T's (in a 1987 B33 SF), but mine are rated for 260 HP. From what I've read from different sources, the HP rating on those motors was all over the chart and doesn't really mean too much. To modify my particular engines (1W5070 arrangement) to a stock Caterpillar 320 HP setup, I've learned from my mechanic that the following is needed: The governor springs need to be changed, the pump groups in the injection pump need to be changed to increase fuel delivery and the full load fuel setting must be changed to 5.40mm. The hi idle adjustment will also be increased. The injectors are the same. All this only adds a slight amount of fuel delivery to the engines, and mostly at the top end of the power curve. Just after I got my boat I had my injectors swapped out for new and the valves adjusted, and was quite happy with the results. I've also got the 1.375" shafts, which broke once for the previous owner who replaced them with the current 1.375" Aquamet 22's. I'm scared to upgrade fuel settings or put on too big a prop because of the small shafts, even though they are the A22's. Currently running 20x22 3-blades, which give me a 21-22 knot cruise at 2500 RPM (I run a little higher RPM than I should because the boat wants to plane there, and as a result the engines are actually loaded lighter at that RPM). The engines top out at 2900 RPM, 25-26 knots. Definitely under-propped but also safe with that stock Bertram setup. I've got my spare set of props being scanned and changed to 20x23 (adding 1" of pitch) and will report on the results when I change them, probably won't be soon though. I was told to expect that adding 1" of pitch would result in a 200 RPM drop at WOT. Since I easily get to 2900 now, I don't think that will be true in my case. Since Sbeer has same setup with much larger props and still hits 2850 I think I could probably go to a 20x22 or a 21xWhatever, but am taking prop upgrades slowly. Remember that in big rollers your engines will get loaded down much worse than in moderate seas. Too big a prop could snap the little shafts in that weather. Look at posts here and in the 3208 section on www.boatdiesel.com, lots of info about upgrading 3208's. Wow, I wrote book there.

CB35 · Post by **CB35** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:40 pm

Sbeer, Sean got it right. 260 and up all have turbos. Than Cat added aftercoolers and so on to increase HP. Marine naturals are 210HP. Charlie

sbeer · Post by **sbeer** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:12 am

Like I said I wasn't to sure. Thought I had read something somewhere on that line. I checked the load on mine at sea with a 2 to 3 swell with a chop. The mechanic told me that at wide open in the river going to the ocean, I still had room because I did not even hit the pins??????? Said I had room to spare. He even suggested that I can go up alittle more on prop pitch. When I told him about the shaft size he said he would not have run it up as long as he did, to small. In the ocean it reached all rated points. The boat has had this size shaft since I think 87. Charlie, did you say you could swap out the 1 3/8 to 1 1/5 with out changing the struts? Let me know. Still a rookie in diesel guys. 2 years and still learning. Thanks for the correction Stu

CB35 · Post by **CB35** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:10 am

No I said you may be able to use thinner walled bearings. Bertram usually used thick wall bearings. So you can go up one shaft size by using thin wall bearings. You can remove the struts and have them bored; that is for sure. I would check out the first option. You are going to have to measure very accurately. My 35B has two struts per shaft. Charlie

photo finish · Post by **photo finish** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:37 am

Charlie, Are you sure that thinner wall bearings and boring out the struts is a good idea? I suggested that to my installers and they investigated and decided that they did not think it would be the right thing to do.so they are replacing the aquamet 22 with temet 25 which is a stronger alloy. After being disappointed that i was not going to put thicker shafts on ,i thought about first, i am saving at least $3000 in new struts and thicker shafts and being able to use my old props as spares.and second i am not sure that using thinner walled bearings and thinning the walls on the struts is not weakening the running gear significantly. so my suggestion is that if you are going to upsize then i would replace the struts too. Tim Stamm Photo Finish 1981 33' Bertram FBC

sbeer · Post by **sbeer** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:29 am

tim, how much for you to replace both shafts? Did you reuse the hubs? What about the packing, do any upgrades there? Man, is that alot of questions! If you think about it, boreing out the strut would weaken it, right. Why would bert use such a heavy duty strut in the first place. The shafts that you went with, did the installer say anything about percautions? If the total cost of replacing the whole drive area is going to be over my wallet, I would like to look into the same as you. Mike just plain addicted