Port Engine losing oil?

Post by **dougl33** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 10:49 am

My port Merc 454 started using oil for the first time in the 3 years I've owned the boat. So far its used about 1/2 a quart in about 35 hours. I know this may not seem like much, but I haven't had to add a drop of oil to either engine the first 2 years I owned the boat. Total hours on both engines are around 1125. I put pads in the bilge under the engine to see if I could figure out where it was leaking. I have seen a couple of small spots, but nothing that woud add up to a 1/2 quart. Also, it does not look or smell like its burning oil. I was reading a post on another site by an individual who had a similar problem. He was seeing an oil slick in the water behind the boat when running his engine. Someone else posted and told him that he had had a similar problem a few years back and it turned out to be that the oil cooler had developed an interal leak and was sending oil out through the exhaust. I did notice that the topsides just below the upper exhaust outlet are a little stained. Has anyone else ever had this problem? Thanks in advance for your advice. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

captgene · Post by **captgene** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:11 am

Doug, Interesting....I'll go with the oil cooler. I had one go once, but it never blew out 1/2 a qt. But the bigger the hole... I get stains on the glass under the exhaust as well. Both sides, but I never use any oil. I change it every 100hrs. Soone if I've run some major trip. good luck E.W. Dugan

photo finish · Post by **photo finish** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:55 am

Doug, I just had the exact problem with my port merc 454 and thanks to your posting and others i was able to fix the problem promptly...... thanks Tim Stamm Photo Finish 1981 33' Bertram FBC

Post by **dougl33** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:09 am

FYI: Apparently the oil cooler was not the problem on my engine. Although I've not really used the boat since mid-Sept, the port engine was still using oil even after I replaced the oil cooler in early Aug. In fact, the starbord engine had also started using oil by the beginning of Sept. Again, it wasn't a lot (maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of a quart every 10 hours or so) and its definately not going in the bilges. I can only surmise that I am burning it even though I am not seeing any blue smoke. On the advice of an old-timer at my marina, I sent out some oil samples from both engines to NAPA. The thinking behind this was that the resulting analysis would tell me if I had any metals in the oil and would thus be able to pinpoint the result of the oil loss, i.e. rings, etc... The analysis came back with no excessive wear indicated and no significant materials in the oil. So what's next? The old timer is telling me that since the analysis came back OK, that the problem is likely in the heads. He seems to think it could be the valve stem seals that is causing the oil loss. The only problem with that is that the only way to verify this is to do an expensive valve job. Other than living with the small amount of oil loss, does anyone have any thoughts? Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

Post by **dougl33** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:09 am

Well I finally got the boat winterized and wrapped a couple of weeks ago. As part of the process, I had my mechaninc do a compressions test of both mains. Here are the results: Cyl Starbord Port 1 145 145 2 150 145 3 140 135 4 145 145 5 140 140 6 140 145 7 140 130* 8 145 140 Since number 7 is just outside the 10% thresh hold we squirted some oil into the cyl and got the same results which would tell me its a valve problem. Though, %10 on the port motor would be 14.5% and number 7 comes in at 15%, I'm not overly concerned. With the exception of that cylinder, these are almost identical to the compression test the surveyor got 3 years ago when the motors had 900 hours on them. We did notice that the rear main seal was leaking a little on the starbord motor, but nothing major. Seeing as the boat is a FBC and its a bear to get the engines out I'll have to live with that. The engines now have about 1180 hours on them. Honestly, I was surprised the compression check came back as good as it did. I'm still trying to figure out why I went through 2.5 quarts of oil on the port motor and about a quart on the starbord motor. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

photo finish · Post by **photo finish** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:41 am

Doug, I am no mechanic but from what i have been told to get 150 and 145 numbers is quite amazing from an engine with some mileage.I would be thrilled with those numbers even though one is at 130.if i remember right mine were all at around 125 with one at 115 maybe i should be concerned.My hour meters are at 550 port and 350 starboard however i dont believe those are original hours i think they were changed probably when they did the last minor overhauls..i wish i had more history of my boat. as far as a rear main oil seal i have that as well and i guess it is a pain to fix that ?i guess the engine would have to be supported somehow .I was told that it is not worth the expense to fix however i dont like the amount of oil that leaks in the bilge. another question for you doug,i have 1981 330hp 454's i am only getting 3500rpms is that any where close to what you are getting ? i was expecting to get 4000rpm? i know i need a bottom job which i am doing soon but the bottom is clean and so is my running gear. Tim Stamm Photo Finish 1981 33' Bertram FBC

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:43 pm

Doug and Tim, I have a few observations after working on mine. First, Doug I`m impressed with those compression #`s , excellent. One of my umbrella seals was cracked on an intake valve which would obviously cause a little oil consumption but all the intake valves had about the same oil deposit on the stem at the base, indicating similar oil use.That engine used one quart in about a hundred hours.My guess is that wear on the guides is more resposible than the seals for oil consumption. My engines have just about the same hours as Doug`s.If you want to try changing the seals, there is a way to pressurize the cylinder and change the seals without removing the heads, much less work. You can always take off a valve cover to check the condition of the seals. Another thing I found last winter on my port engine was that the remote oil filter adaptor that bolts on to the block was leaking. It has one large bolt(I think 13/16) that was a bit loose. It was running right where a rear main would leak. After that the engine didn`t use any oil last summer. Thes rear main seals are a pretty good design and it just may be a loose fitting thats leaking instead. Frank Price

Post by **dougl33** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:59 pm

Frank, Thanks for the headsup about the remote oil filter. As I'm not a mechanic, maybe you could shoot down to Salem at some point over the winter and we could take a look at it. That way I could show you around PCYC and you couyld think about joining. Tim, What are you running for props on your boat? When I first got my 33 in 2002 they had 3 bladed nibrals 21X20's. I was getting about 27 knots @ wot, but I was only getting 3700rpms with full fuel, water, and 4 pob. At a cruise of 2800rpms I was only getting 16 knots. As I've mentioned before on this site, these boats were made to cruise at least 18-19 knots. To me its a completely different boat once you get moving along at 18 knots or better. At that point I had a bimini only with no enclosure. In the summer of 2003, I cut down my spare props to 20X18 with a very light cup. Under the same full load conditions, the rpms jumped to around 4100 at WOT good for 28 knots. On a couple of occaisions, I was able to get 30 knots on the GPS. I was cruising at 19 knots at just under 3100 rpms. Again, as was previoulsy mentioned on this site, I lost a blade off my starbord prop while cruising along at 19 knots. Talk about a whole lotta shaking going on. I switched to a set of 4 bladed nibrals 20X16. At first, WOT rpms increased, but I added a hardtop and enclosure this summer. By the end of the year I was down to 4000rpms @wot and down to about 26-27 knots. Since I am more concerned with the cruising attitude of the boat than fuel economy, I have been cruising them a bit harder to get the 18-19 knots I like. I try and keep them under 3200rpms. I'm pretty sure Al's owners manual claims a WOT of 3900 rpms for his 330hp Merc, but his are from 1977. My owners manual claims 4200-4600 and mine are the 340hp. What size props do you have and what are you getting for speed @ wot? You could be over-propped. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

photo finish · Post by **photo finish** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:15 am

Doug, I have 3 blade 21x20 props w/13/8" shafts.I really have only ran the boat a couple of times since i got her in september.I have been busy chasing problems with the engine and exhaust as you have read.I also have been outfitting her with a new half tower with a bunch of rod holders.I put on outriggers and a large live bait tank..The list goes on to include all new electronics horn and carpet.etc. I have an enclosure going on soon and i am hauling in 2 weeks to do bottom and repack shafts( any reccomendations from anyone on anything else to do while she is out of the water).anyway to make a long story short i have not driven her much to get a full feel for where i am at. also the long trip (100miles) i did take i think the tachs were not right because they were jumping all over so i replaced them too. My ride 2 days (now that i got my engine mystery solved )was great.I did feel a small vibration but it might of been the genset.i dont have exact figures but at wot i was at 3500rpm and a top speed of 23knots i think cruising was 16knots at 2800rpm. full fuel 2pob and the new half tower which really does not weigh much more than 200 pounds.i have ordered a service manuel on the engines but i thought i read they should be at 4200 when they were new...my mechanic says that with the age and compression of my engines that 3500rpm is about right. how did you lose a blade did you hit something going 19knots? I would love to cruise at 20 and wot at 30 but i dought it with these engines. Tim Stamm Photo Finish 1981 33' Bertram FBC

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:49 am

Doug, Good idea. Maybe this weekend will work.I`ll give you a call. I plan to pull the heads off the port engine and a short trip will be a good break for me. Frank Price

captgene · Post by **captgene** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:51 am

Doug/Tim, What gears do you run with those props? I have 23x26 3 blades on 2.57:1 gears. And I also have a set of 24x24 4 blades. The 3 blades won't run up to 4400 rpms , only about 3800-4000, but the 4 blades hit 4400 right on the money. At 3200 I cruise about 18 knots. At WOT who knows. I don't run them that hard , but I do run them up occasionaly just to blow them out a bit. E.W. Dugan

Post by **dougl33** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:23 am

Frank, Unfortunately this weekend is no good. I promised the wife that once the boat was out of the water and put up for the winter that I would start tackling jobs around the house. I'm right in the middle of painting the ceiling in one of the spare bedrooms. There are paint chips all over the place and I've still got more prep to do. I hope to have the ceiling fully prepped for paint by Sunday night so I can paint it on Monday night. In-laws are coming for the holidays on Wed so I've got to get busy. Give me a call though and we can set up another time. Gene, I'm running 1.9 to 1's. Tim, Depending on what ratio you're trannies are, I'd consider modifying your props to 20X18's. I'll bet that would do the trick. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

photo finish · Post by **photo finish** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:25 pm

my gears are 1.9:1 Tim Stamm Photo Finish 1981 33' Bertram FBC

photo finish · Post by **photo finish** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:05 pm

I ran my boat for 15 hours this weekend ..yeah!!! that sure felt good to get a good feel for the boat.Frank I think I have my engine problems in check for now.(thanks for your help)The boat ran great and handled the 2-4' seas like a bathtub.I find that the boat seems weighted to the port side which for some reason is the case with any boat i have owned.I have the standard stock trim tabs and i find that i really have to use them alot i am surprised to find that a boat of this size and weight that i have to adjust them when anyone moves in the boat. does everyone find this to be the case?has anyone used the bennett auto tab system before?.anyway i am finding that i am constantly adjusting them and that the boat is heavy to port. i cruised between 2800-2900rpm at a speed of 17-18knots fully loaded.I did not hit wot for very long but when i did i was at around 3500rpm at 24knots my cruise speed seems good but is the top end a little low or is this what to expect with the older engine.those of you that have changed props i have noticed that your cruise speed seems alittle less but your wot is higher.so is this personal preference or is it better for the engine . as far as my oil ... in 15 hours i seem to have lost 1/2 quart in both engines with quite a bit going in the bilge.on my port it does appear to be a rear oil seal leak because i checked all the bolts for leaks including the remote oil filter and it still appears to be dripping onto the flywheel and slinging onto the port side of the bilge.the starboard hadnt lost any until this trip and now it loss 1/2 quart in the bilge. i havnt found where that is coming from yet. My family loves everything this boat has to offer and is proud to own a 33' bertram. Tim Stamm Photo Finish 1981 33' Bertram FBC

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:15 pm

Tim, You're welcome, glad I could help. It sounds like you had a good day on the boat. I hope it's the first of many.It's a good feeling, isn't it? to have the family enjoy it , hopefully as much as you do. I find that my boat and past boats lean into the wind, a common deep-v trait, so I'm constantly adjusting tabs for that but haven't noticed the difference from people moving around. As far as the oil useage goes, a half quart is a lot of oil in the bilge. Are you sure it's all going into the bilge? Chances are good that some is burning as well , even though you can`t see or smell it. 3500 rpm at wide open is really low. The theory is that if you reach rated rpm wide open, then the load is right at part throttle. Gas engines are a little more forgiving of this than are diesels but you really should take a little pitch out to increase those rpm's. I was getting close to your numbers and the props are at the prop-scan place now getting a couple inches taken out of the pitch. Reducing the load this way may also help with your oil consumption. The problem here is that as a boat ages things conspire to rob it's efficiency. We add stuff which weighs it down, the bottom gets a bit dirty or rough from too much paint, the engines lose a little power, we add wind drag like an enclosure or a tower, it all adds up to more load on the poor old engines, especially as the speed increases.It's exponential, not linear.All you can do is keep the bottom clean and take a little pitch out of the props. I'm interested in seeing what difference I see in my boat in the spring after valve jobs , a stripped bottom and two inches less pitch on the props. With the flow-scans I'll be able to tell exactly what I've gained in fuel mileage. Frank Price