Diesel conversions

smanni · Post by **smanni** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:34 pm

Bill (RAZ) I am about to buy the same boat, with the same engines and I would love to hear someone tell me an honest answer on cruise speed, max speed, and GPH - I have heard so many different numbers that I don't know what to expect.

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:37 pm

Thanks guys . Richard , in the spring maybe I could come take a look at yours. I met a couple in Mattapoisett who had the same set as yours up in a SF the same year as mine, in fact they had tried to buy mine before I did and couldn`t strike a deal. I loved the way those yanmars fit in there. I couldn`t talk him into starting them for me though. Bill, If i`m ever heading to Texas, I`ll give you a shout. Maybe I`ll be able to take you up on that ride. Wouldn`t it be great to ride in SF`s with the three big names in diesels, Cat, Cummins and Yanmar. Sure would be interesting to see the differences. Any cummins owners out there? Frank Price

jav · Post by **jav** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:34 am

Hi folks, new to the forum and this looked like a good place to start. First, I do not own a Bertram (at least not yet). I've always pined for one and I'm finally in a position to seriously consider one. Likely, it will be either a 33 or a 35 so any info you can share would be great. The reason I piped in on this thread is that I just repowered my current boat to twin diesels. I've read every post here and theres lots of truth on both sides of the issue. The biggest pluses that I've found have been the improved cruise speed, range and economy. When I was gas powered, I would always consider consumption in my planning, sometimes slowing down to conserve or deciding not go out at all if the trip was trivial. Now, I don't even think about fuel... I just go, even if just to see how conditions are or to warm her up. Between getting almost twice the mileage and the fuel beign some 30-40% cheaper (in the beginning of the season anyway), consumption became a non issue. Yes, I spent more to repower than I would have on gas for many years but I found it easier to deal with one large lump sum than I did with dropping several hundred bucks every weeekend at the fuel dock. Thats just my, and I think many peoples mentality. Theres some bad news too and don't let anybody kid you. The diesels are significantly louder and harsher than the gas. Mine were not new but they are modern direct injected Volvos in excellent shape that are not known for excessive smoke like some older designs. They still smoke some! And, I do find it embarrasing (and I feel bad) when I start my boat cold and everyone out on the docks enjoying drinks starts fanning the air in front of their faces. I didn't expect that and its to the point where I'm considering docking her bow first just to be polite. Maintenance costs and labor are not very different from the gas.. I find it easier. But, I do all my own work so I can't comment if your relying on a diesel machanic for that. Anyway, the Berts I can afford are gas. I don't mind that as I did my own deisel repower and I rather enjoyed it. I like my boat (an old Trojan F-32), even though its not in the same league as the Berts. My biggest gripe is how the boat handles a following and beam sea. It just doesn't seem right to me but I have no other experience in this sized boat or larger to compare it to. Can anyone offer any insight in what handleing differences I should expect with 33-35' Berts? I've heard everything from "straight as an arrow hands off" to "no boat likes a following sea". Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.

Post by **dougl33** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:00 am

Jav, Welcome aboard. I own a 33 FBC, which is supposedly the more tender of the 2 33's. I've never really had an issue. I only do about 80-100 hours or so a year and I don't fish so I haven't been caught out in anything that I would consider really nasty yet. However, as long as the sun is shining, I'm going out. I;ve come back in more than once to have a fellow boater say "Its pretty rough out there today." My usual reply is that I hadn't noticed. The boat is great in any headsea. Really big following seas can be a bit uncomfortable but nothing I would change my plans over. One of my favorite things is watching other boats slow down to take my wake when we are passing each other. In these boats you'll never have to slow down for anyone's wake. Its great. As far as the gas consumption effecting my planning, it doesn't. I didn't buy the boat thinking it was going to sip fuel. These are heavy boats for gas engines. Like you, I could not afford a diesel boat, but I can afford to keep gas in the one I have. My wife and I both have decent jobs and we have no kids. Rich, Your numbers seem abit on the low side for what I've heard on similar setups. I.e. 300-330hp Cummins or Yannies. I would've thought you could cruise at 23-24 knots and top out around 30 knots. Do you have a full tower? I know the Bert 35's with 300hp cats will cruise at 21-22 knots and top out around 27-28 knots. The 35's are wider and heavier than our boats. Cust curious. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

jav · Post by **jav** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 am

Doug, thanks for the reply. I do fish, but not alot. My boat does pretty well in head sea and I rarely slow for wakes on mine either. But, even in very modest seas, (even in the bay) and especially where there are converging currents, my boat feels likie one of those fire trucks with a guy steering the rear. I have to take all the tabs out and get the speed up and keep up with corrections or she feels like the back wants to pass the front (not that bad but not pleasant either). Does yours ever feel like that?

Post by **dougl33** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:59 am

John, No. I can honestly say that I've never had that feeling in my boat. I have been in some good size following seas on my way into the Cape Cod Canal from the Buzzards Bay side and I've never had a feeling like you described. Which of the 33's were you interested in? Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

jav · Post by **jav** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:38 am

Doug, I could go either way but it will likely be a second generation boat (seating in front of the helm on the flybridge and seperate shower stall). I like the interior space of the FBC and the cockpit is big enough for me. I like the SF for the lower roll center and especially for the engines out of the interior spaces. My engines are under the salon and lets just say my motor head, ham fisted ways have gotten me a tongue lashing on a few occasions. The final decision will depend on how much I get for my boat, and what deals are available at the time. Having done a diesel conversion once, I'm quite sure I'll buy a gas boat and do the same again (with used deisels). Sadly, I've never been out on a Bertram of any size... its been the priase and respect of others more knowledgable than I that has really pushed me towards the mark. Well that and the short comings of my own vessel. I am still somewhat concerned about the Bertram "roll". I'm coming from a very wide, relatively flat bottomed boat so I do want to see for myself how the boats "feel". I also considered the Blackfin 32 but I don't care for the looks, low freeboard, and the basement interior spaces and I just kept coming back to B33 & B35. Like the administator says, people don't usually question why you bought a Bertram.

CB35 · Post by **CB35** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:17 am

I have a 1984 35B with 300HP 3208Cats. No movement in a following sea. No sway in a quarting following sea either. The 35B with 3208Cats just runs straight and true. The keel also cuts down on the Bertram roll. Chaeck one out someday. Charlie

Post by **Admin** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:35 pm

quote:Originally posted by jav I also considered the Blackfin 32 but I don't care for the looks, low freeboard, and the basement interior spaces and I just kept coming back to B33 & B35. Like the administator says, people don't usually question why you bought a Bertram. John V Please, call me David! [8D] I know it is a California boat, but if you see any Blackmans where you are, they are definitely worth a look too. David Sumich Bertram33.com Forum Administrator

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:55 pm

John, Thanks for the comments about your diesels. Have you tried block heaters? It could cure alot of your start up smoke. I think the reason you hear different opinions about handling in a following sea is partly the distribution of weight in these things. The convertables probably have a bit more of the weight from their house on the stern and if a boat has cats, they weigh a good ton more than gas engines and the engines are a bit toward the stern.If you notice the sportfish`s with gas engines, they set a little bow-down at rest and I for one, feel that this makes them a handfull in a following sea. I wouldn`t say it's as bad as you describe with your boat until the wave height reaches about four to five feet or so but it always needs attention. I have to say though, I`ve never been in a boat that would handle a head sea as well. I don`t know where you are located but if you ever make it around the Gloucester area when the boat is in the water , I'd be happy to take you out for a spin. Doug, The numbers Rich is mentioning are exactly the same as the numbers on the other 33 SF I saw powered with the same engines.It does seem like it ought to go faster but , boy I`d love to cruise at 21 kts burning only 18 GPH. As it is, with our boats at that speed, we`d be burning around 40 GPH!

captgene · Post by **captgene** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:41 am

John V I have 1989 33 FBC, unfortunatly it's gas, but I've cruised this boat all through the Bahamas, and have come across some not too perfect conditions. First, if you sit offshore in anything bigger than 3 ft. Hang on! Only on the bridge. Mine has the tower, so a lot of the rolling is atributed to that higher center of gravity. Following or quarter seas it runs just fine if you arn't just putting along. I've hit 23-24 knots downhill in it without the square end trying to catch up with the pointy end. Head seas..who cares (not the boat) I stuffed it more than once. Just wipe the sea weed off the bridge window and keep going. Don't get me wrong, it will bang you if it's the short 4-6 ft chop. But if I slow down to about 15 knots it all goes away. That's how safe I feel in this boat. E.W. Dugan

jav · Post by **jav** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:02 am

David, thank you. Frank, Thanks for the offer. I have a friend with a house on the water in Gloucester thats been asking me to come up... maybe next summer I'll do that and try to look you up. As far as the block heater goes, I haven't tried that but I'm not sure its practical. We usually get to the boat with friends, load up, run some routine checks and cast off (5-10 minutes tops). I think block heaters need a good 30 minutes or more to work effectively so that would slow us down. Also, the smoke dies down pretty fast, by the time I clear my slips fairway at idle, its gone. Its only on the intitial start-up where a pretty thick black puff stinks up the docks. Once lit, the engines smoke very little and even that goes away within a couple of minutes. I'm still glad I did it and wouldn't go back to gas just be aware thats its not all roses on the other side.

GMarty · Post by **GMarty** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:16 am

Great discussion. My 2 cents: The notion of the 33 FBC being "tender" is the result of one or two reviews on this boat when she was fist on the market. If never said in print, I do not think we would be having this exchange. It seems like those who own em don't agree so what else do you need to hear? For me, I have as of now decided to smack anyone who calls my boat "tender"! Kidding asisde, she rolls like all deep V's and I have never been concerned in a following sea (and have pushed it a few times). All this said, I am flim flamming daily about moving up to a 37 vs repowering in diesel. Hell, my 28 (also a Bert) rolled just as much as this one.

Post by **dougl33** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:20 am

Oh no. I've dragged Gmarty over to the dark side.[}:)] 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

mak6190 · Post by **mak6190** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:46 pm

Ok.. here are my thoughts.. I have a 82 33'SF with 3208 CATs rated @ 275HP. The only reason I would consider repowering would be to get a higher cruise for Island hopping @ around 26 kts. If I were to re-power I would not put brand new engines in a 22 year old boat. I would look for "0 hours" rebuilt 3208 CATs rated @ 375 hp. for around $13k ea. w/o gearbox @ www.goldcoastpower.com. Our boats are on the heavy side for their size(21000 lbs) and I personaly think that the typical Bertram ride is directly related to this issue. I think a 1998 40' SeaRay wieghs right @ 17000 lbs. The fumes are there, just like the gas engines. The noise is not bad, only when you are pulling up to a beach and everyone is looking at you to see if your going to snag their anchor and when your going to shut the engines down. Other than that Its relaxing to hear them pur when your trolling. Smoke is not there, unless you have been trolling for 8 hours, then when you go back on a plane they will smoke for about 30 seconds. The 3208 are very smooth running V-8's. Fuel is not a problem in Venezuela. It cost me about $30 USD to fill my 315 gal. Unleaded gas is about double that so it would be around $60 USD. How many Mack 18 wheelers or PeterBuilt tractor trailers do we know that run on gas ? Probably none becuase they would be much more costly to operate and would require many more stops / hour of operation. Diesel engines hold up beter than gas engines under heavy loads and are more suitable for continous or comercial operation or applications. 6000 to 7000 hours of service are not uncommon for a pair of well kept CAT3208s. So the bottom line is : Obtaining the boat is not as difficult as to maintaining it. (gas is cheaper in the short run) Speed = or proportional to the figures in one's checking account. Hope this helps..