Bertram33 User Forum

Tim, The only ones that haven't switched yet, are the ones who haven't filled up yet. From what I understand, they can't buy non-Eth gas any more. Rick Ticket 85 SF Falmouth, MA

If the weather wasnt so bad it would all be changed over by now. They are still trying to sell off the old stuff. Bill 33 FBC Ipswich, Ma. [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... a_Rose.jpg[/img]

http://www.e10unleaded.com/index2.htm Go get em' boys! Bill 33 FBC Ipswich, Ma. [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... a_Rose.jpg[/img]

quote:Originally posted by Rick I know...it's driving me nuts too. I'm almost ready to take a flight down there ! Bertram Yachts called me back. The official word from this lady is that it's pre - 1987 boats. But she also mentioned that the person we want to talk to is: Geney (pronounced Heney) Menendez. Guess he's gone for the day, but will be in tomorrow. So while Frank is jumping up and down...I'll give Geney a buzz tomorrow to see if he has anything else to add. Rick Ticket 85 SF Falmouth, MA I wonder what the story is for a 1987 boat that was built (at least partially) in 1986, which besides mine probably includes half of the '87's. I am not surprised they don't have an official statement, mainly because ethanol was around in the 1970's, so you'd think anyone making a fuel tank of any sort after then would make it eth-friendly. Seems to me a big mistake to do otherwise. On the other hand, since the original Bertram company is no longer, there is probably nobody "left holding the bag" to sue anyway. If they do in fact have some hard information about which boats they built that might be in danger, all I can say is it sure is extremely uncool for them to not release it. This is at a minimum boat-threatening stuff, but in the wrong circumstances potentially life-threatening stuff. Sean Burlingham "Island Time" 1987 Bertram 33 SF Melbourne, FL SBurlingham@cfl.rr.com

I spoke to Geny a couple of weeks ago and he told me that Bertram switch over in 1985 to a resin that can handle ethanol

Thanks Keith. Still no reply to the following email (in bold) sent to various Bertram departments (i.e. sales, marketing, service, parts, warranty) To Whom It May Concern: I am part of a dedicated group of Bertram owners who are looking for some insight into the ongoing discussion of ethanol gasoline and Bertram's fiberglass fuel tanks. In case you were not aware, there are 3 fairly large owner's groups that are linked by the web. The sites are: http://bertram33.com/ This is the site that I primarily monitor and contribute to. 184 registered members have made 8,250 posts on this site. http://bertram31.com/bbbs_fs.htm I'm sure someone at Bertram must be familiar with this site and its creator, Capt Patrick McCray. His website has been providing the "faithful" with a discussion forum for years (900,000 hits and 79,000 post in the past 6 years). http://www.25bertram.com/ While I am not very familiar with this site, there have been over 6000 posts since the website was created. Since these 3 sites are dedicated to some of Bertram's smaller models, the majority of these owners have gas powered vessels. Most of us have been searching all over the web for as much information as possible regarding the introduction of ethanol laced fuel (E10). There has been much speculation that the ethanol will dissolve the resins in our fiberglass tanks, effectively breaching the tanks while also causing catastrophic engine failure in the process as the dissolved resins appear to be passing through the fuel filters/separators and gluing the valve train shut once the engines cool down. Obviously we are all very concerned. There have been several claims on the internet that fiberglass tanks made in the mid-80's are ethanol safe as the resins used to construct the tanks were changed. Several of us have tried unsuccessfully to get any information we can directly from Bertram and have come up empty handed. While I realize that Bertram was out of business for a few years in the early 90's and that the current ownership group is several times removed from these tanks in question, is it possible for anyone currently at Bertram to possibly shed some light on this topic and provide some guidance to several hundred incredibly loyal Bertram owners? Thank you in advance for your response. Regards, Doug LeBlanc Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]

I think maybe they know of the issues, know that the Bertram factory at the time screwed the pooch on at least a lot if not all boat tanks, and don't want to sully the Bertram name by admitting which ones. If they were dodging the question for litigious reasons you'd think they'd be completely tight-lipped even on the phone, which they're seemingly not. I'm no lawyer, but as I understand it, State law in Florida holds a company liable for latent (hidden) defects for 15 years, much longer than most states. Most big companies who are worried about it for whatever reason know how to sidestep this liability through periodic ownership changes and company restructuring. Since Bertram already did that, albeit not for this reason, and most if not all the older company's boats have passed the 15-year threshold anyway, I really doubt the current or past Owners have any worries for liability at all. I think their only motivation for not answering is they want to protect the Bertram name from the issue. So I suggest we publicly remove that option for them. I suggest a well written "Open Plea to new Bertram Company Owners" that we somehow get published in the editors column or reader's letter section in a prominent magazine. Maybe that will get them to search through some old paperwork that somebody might still have, and then finally answer the damned question publicly in as definitive a way as they can. I'd be willing to take a whack at writing the letter, any suggestions about which magazine would be the biggest thorn in their side to have such a thing published? I wonder if the Hatt Owners have tried to get Hatt to answer the same question. No change of the guard there that I'm aware of, so I would suspect that their answer would be no answer at all. Sean Burlingham "Island Time" 1987 Bertram 33 SF Melbourne, FL SBurlingham@cfl.rr.com

Sean, Good idea and it may help us retrieve some of the cost in the long run. But on the other hand I believe that Bertram built the strongest tank they could, switched the resin in the tanks when informed of Ethanol problems and rolled on in production. It would have been nice if they posted something on their website to inform everyone and even better if they made replacement tanks available. I haven't talked to Geney yet, but have put two messages on his voicemail. He's probably getting hammered with calls, I'll be patient. But it sounds like pre-87 owners need new tanks soon. Don't take my word for it, but I urge you to investigate. That woman told me Ethanol will break down the older tanks. For sure. It will happen. Doug, you've got 315 gallon tank.....right ? So do I, assuming they are the same dimensions. Should we team up ? Any other 315 owners ? Rick Ticket 85 SF Falmouth, MA

Rick, If you read Keith's post, you'll note that he spoke with Geney 2 weeks ago and that he told him the switch over was in 1985. I'm not ready to do anything yet. I would wait until you actually speak with Geney before doing anything crazy. I'm still not convinced that all boats/tanks will be affected. Once again, so far the only documented cases have invovled very old models from both Hatt and Bert (i.e. boats from the 60's and early 70's). I do have the 315 gallon tank. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]

When I spoke Geney and asked for a new tank he asked what for, so i told him of my concern with the ethanol, He said what year I told him 87 and he said that the switch took place in 85-86. that i would be all set. I asked about a buddy of mine with a 28 1983 and he said that it would be effected.

Rick, When you speak with Geney, ask him if he knows what hull number they started the change. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]

Some news from Crusader, hope that E85 never shows up. Crusader FAQ Q: With today’s rising gasoline prices, what octane rating is recommended for my Crusader engine? A: Crusader fuel injected engines are calibrated to operate on 87 octane fuel and maximum performance is obtained when using this fuel. The ignition timing set by the factory requires the use of a high-quality lead free regular gasoline with an octane specification of (R+M/2). Q: What is Crusader's policy on the use of Ethanol? A: The implementation of ethanol-based fuel is spreading rapidly throughout the United States . The end user of our engines might well be concerned regarding the use of this fuel. As such, Crusader Marine Engines provides the following policy statement regarding the use of this fuel. This notification addresses the use of ethanol fuels IN CRUSADER ENGINES ONLY. It does not address the use of ethanol fuels in vessel related components such as boat gas tanks, boat fuel lines, boat fuel filters, etc. The boat owner is STRONGLY ENCOURAGED to contact the boat builder regarding the suitability of ethanol fuel usage in their vessel. Ethanol blended fuel rated E10 or less is acceptable to use. Fuels rated higher than E10 SHOULD NOT BE USED. Ethanol fuels rated higher than E10 could potentially damage the engine and/or present an unsafe boating condition. Damage to the engine resulting from the use of ethanol fuel rated higher than E10 is not covered by the warranty. Q. What is Ethanol Fuel? A. Ethanol, also known as ethyl alcohol or grain alcohol is a flammable, colorless chemical compound that is added to gasoline to produce a blended fuel. Q. Why are many states implementing ethanol fuel? A. Rising energy and environmental problems have led to an increased interest in alcohol as a fuel. Q. How is ethanol fuel identified? A. The gas pump will indicate the fuel as a particular concentration of ethanol. For example if the pump indicates the fuel is E10, that means the fuel is a blended mixture of 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline by volume. The higher the “E numberâ€� the higher the percentage of ethanol. Q. Is it safe to operate my boat on ethanol fuel? A. It is safe to operate your ENGINE(S) on fuels rated E10 or less. Do not operate your engine(s) on fuel rated in excess of E10 as this could affect performance and void your warranty. You will need to check with the boat manufacture to determine whether the vessel components such as the gas tank and boat fuel lines are ethanol compatible. Q. If automobiles can run up to E85 fuel why can't marine engines? A. Automobiles have the ability to constantly monitor and adjust for different fuel blends. Marine engines on the other hand operate under vastly different conditions and duty cycles and do not have that capability. Q. Is it safe to use methanol fuel? A. Methanol fuel should NOT BE USED. This fuel is very corrosive and will create unsafe operating conditions. Bill 33 FBC Ipswich, Ma. [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... a_Rose.jpg[/img]

This is from Chuck Fort at Boat Useless, How does ethanol affect my fiberglass fuel tank? Fiberglass tanks manufactured prior to 1991 may not be compatible with gasoline containing ethanol. It has been reported that, in the presence of ethanol, some resins may be drawn out of fiberglass and carried into the engine where severe damage could occur. If an older fiberglass tank is used, check with the manufacturer to determine if gasoline with ethanol can be safely used. Bill 33 FBC Ipswich, Ma. [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... a_Rose.jpg[/img]

Just spoke to Geney, 1. He said to look at the Tank MFG Date and if made before '86, it could be affected. But in reality, there has only been 2 or 3 confirmed reports of tanks melting down and they seemed to be ones that were stored for a long time. He hypothesizes that the Ethanol separates during storage and then eats away the resin, but as long as it's moving around the problem doesn't seem to exist. So don't store the boat with any gas in it ! 2. He's got a new report that he's going to fax to me (haven't received yet) that has new information for us. So I'll scan it and post that when it arrives. 3. I've read this before, maybe here, but he also said the Starbrite Gas Additive seems to help quite a bit and an owner in CT has documented proof, this might be in his report but we'll see. 4. For removal, the tanks are laminated over the stringers, need to be cut away from them. Bertrams are still made the same way today. Doesn't sound like an easy job, hope we don't have to go there. 5. For drawings and more information, he said we can get them from "The Bertram Doctors". They are ex-Bertram employee's who built our boats and are available for consults. 772-234-5211 6. For replacement tanks, he said to work with Richard Bertram Yachts: 305-633-9761 Based on my conversation with him, I think that I'm going back to the Racor plan to wait and see. Rick Ticket 85 SF Falmouth, MA

The "Boat Doctors" are Lee Dana and Jerry Solderholm, two long-time Bertram employees, now retired. There is an article about them linked on the 31 site www.bertram31.com/articles/soundings/dana.htm Mike Ford