DO NOT DO ALUMINUM TANKS - READ LEE DANA'S COMMENT

BECCA ROSE · Post by **BECCA ROSE** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:28 pm

Frank, thanks for checking into that. Let us know! Bill 33 FBC Ipswich, Ma. [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... a_Rose.jpg[/img]

BECCA ROSE · Post by **BECCA ROSE** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:58 pm

"All fuel tanks are baffled, utilize the best fittings, and are Laminated with HETRON for fire retardent protection. Then the tanks are close cell foam isolated and glassed directly to the core structure of the hull. But More importantly it’s where they are located. All Bertram Yachts are uniquely balanced with centrally located fuel tanks that create Bertram’s proper running attitude regardless of your power choice and fuel load." That's a quote from the Bertram website in the Advanced System section. Bill 33 FBC Ipswich, Ma. [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... a_Rose.jpg[/img]

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:16 pm

Well I managed to talk to a guy from ashland today. He was somewhat helpful but couldn't recognise the specific hetron product that Lee dana mentions in Ed's post.I will try to contact Lee tomorrow to clarify the actual hetron product just so the guy from ashland can tell me what it is exactly that we're dealing with . Obviously , since it has been awhile , Lee's number could be wrong or they just haven't made that particular product in some time. He also mentioned that Bertram probably had a tank maker make the tanks for them as they do now, so I may look for the manufacturer also, just to get as much from the horses mouth as posible. What I want to hear is whether the particular resin used in the later tanks will or will not hold up to some ethanol. And I want to hear it from the makers of the resin. I believe it is a forgone conclusion that the older tanks made with the regular resin with a flame retardant additive will have problems but I'm still not convinced of the later ones.Of course I may get bad news but I want to know for sure before I start making plans for a new tank. It does appear that the hetron line of resins are a vinylester but they have a list of them that are formulated to resist different things, mostly acids it appears. It also looks like the older resins are good for about thirty years reguardless, so ethanol or not, I would be looking for a new tank soon if I had a boat built before 1980. I'll keep everyone posted as to what I find out

Post by **Admin** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:56 pm

Thanks Frank!

Post by **dougl33** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:12 am

Good job Frank. Betweeen the lot of us, I think we've done more research into the ethanol issue than all of the boating/trade magazines and newspapers combined and we're not even getting paid to do it. Any rational individual could glean more info from both this site and the 31 site than from all of the other media outlets (including TV). How sad is that? Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]

Capt. Ed · Post by **Capt. Ed** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:47 am

The commercial TV, radio and print medias are only vehicles to hold your attention between commercials and ads, not to provide thoughtful insight to important issues. 1979 Bertram 33' FBC ALEXANDRA Port Richey, Florida [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... xandra.jpg[/img] HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR BERTRAM PRIDE '06 yet? DO IT NOW... SPACE IS LIMITED!

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:52 pm

OK, I talked to Lee Dana today . He's a decent guy to talk to and gave me a number of the resin that made sense to the guy at ashland. We chatted about a few issues with our boats and it was nice to make a connection with him and I don't think he's tired of talking about our boats yet, thankfully. One interesting point he made: He's been trying to contact ashland and they haven't returned his call or email request, so he is making a little bit of an assumption that this hetron resin used after '85 or so , is not compatible with ethanol/ gas, since it wasn't spec'd for that, only flame retardation. So I called the guy at Ashland and chatted with him about the resin, which he did recognize now. He cannot say that this resin will hold up in an ethanol /gas mix because to the best of his knowlege it has never been tested for that use. The method they use for testing entails making a piece out of the resin, submerging it with both sides exposed and then checking it after a month , then three months, then six months and then a year. At each check they compare the stiffness and a few other criteria and in the end I guess if it has failed fity percent, then it is no good. He is going to do a test like this of this particular resin. I said I will call him in january to see how it's going. It seems to me that we do have a chance of this resin passing or at least we'll have an idea what to expect when it does fail. As far as the older tanks, I would recommend keeping an eye on them and at some time it is inevitable that they will fail, reguardless of the fuel used, so it is a good thing that Lee is working with Glasstech(I think) to make replacements. All in all, an interesting day and I don't think it was all bad news.

Capt. Ed · Post by **Capt. Ed** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:52 pm

Great follow-up work Frank! If only Government could work this well... but then again that could be scary too! 1979 Bertram 33' FBC ALEXANDRA Port Richey, Florida [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... xandra.jpg[/img] HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR BERTRAM PRIDE '06 yet? DO IT NOW... SPACE IS LIMITED!

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:56 am

Thanks Ed. I don't know if I found out anything that will help anyone with their tanks but I'm getting a pretty good feel for this thing now and honestly I'm not as worried about the ethanol. I think what the press should be most worried about isn't a few "rich" guys with their Bertrams but with the general boating public with tanks made of aluminum failing because ethanol is conductive and therefor allows corrosion , and also they should be worried about the amount of problems caused by phase separation, ie. stalling motors and people put in harms way because of it, and lastly, yah our tanks can be harmed by the stuff. I do firmly believe now that the tanks that are failing now have been failing for some time and the ethanol is accelerating it a bit and mostly causing people to look hard at their tanks, usually because it disolved some goo that was probably there in the first place because the tank was going away. Notice that we haven't had one 33 with a failing tank yet.It's bound to happen as they all age but I think it will be OK for awhile . We will all need tanks some day. It's just a matter of when. Ethanol or not.

Capt. Ed · Post by **Capt. Ed** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:43 pm

The other day I sent Doug's questions to Lee, below is his reply. Lee also reads this forum since I told him about us, as his favorite Bertram is the 33! Doug, I think you owe Lee a call partner! Ed. I will not attempt to answer all the questions that you and others have asked. There are so many variables to contend with that any statement of fact would be stupid for me to pose. I can however, share some relative facts. 31's built in the early 60's had the gel coat on the outside. National energy problems of the 70's and 80's had a direct effect on resin and gel coat quality. Northeast states marine fuel retailers only sell Gasohol. As far as my article hurting rather than helping, If the truth hurts so be it. One fact I will share. In 2003 I was commissioned to design a series of gas fuel tanks for a production builder. My resin specification was selected as being suitable for Ethanol. In April of 06 the builder contacted me because the resin supplier had gone on record that they should change their resin to one that was suitable for Gasohol. About the time I started to be deluged with phone calls from Bertram owners wanting to know what to do!. I guess the rest is history. Regards LD I did learn yesterday that Ashland (Hetron) is in the process of testing and will have answers in one year!!!. 1979 Bertram 33' FBC ALEXANDRA Port Richey, Florida [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... xandra.jpg[/img] HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR BERTRAM PRIDE '06 yet? DO IT NOW... SPACE IS LIMITED!

Post by **dougl33** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:51 am

Ed, It reads as if you told Lee I took exception with his comments which is not true. I take exception with Boat Useless and other media outlets that are only telling part of what Lee has discovered. Boat Useless essentially claimed that Lee Dana said all Bertrams with gas engines are screwed. That is not what I got out of my conversations with him. I think Lee's contributions have been outstanding. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]

TonyNJ · Post by **TonyNJ** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:36 am

I spoke to Kevin Horn yesterday and basically the process to re-glass our tanks should be the most cost effective way to go. He recommended Interplastics Corp ( http://www.interplastic.com/ ) VE8870 promoted resin which conforms to UL 1316 standards for "All Fuels". From Interplastics website: VE8770 Vinyl Ester Superior Solvent Resistance, High Heat Capability. Our highest heat distortion point (300Â° F/149Â° C) vinyl ester with outstanding retention of physicals in high heat exposure. CoREZYNÂ® VE8770 is an excellent choice in solvent exposure and in construction of high heat exposure corrosion resistant laminates. Used for UL 1316 "All Fuels" applications. The process he described was to open the tank, grind the interior glass, wash it out and lay at least 3oz of fiberglass mat. The cost should be the hourly rate (his is $100/hr) plus the resin / fiberglass. He estimated about 10 - 15 hrs. If anyone knows any good glass guys in NJ let me know. I would suggest that WE supply the resin so there are no "suprises" down the road. Also, it might be a good idea to talk to a surveyor to see if he would write a report to document the work as it was being done. I think it would help for both insurance and sales purposes. Tony

Capt. Ed · Post by **Capt. Ed** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:49 am

Doug, I only cut and pasted your questions in your own words into an email to Lee. Tony, That is a great idea to both supply the resin and have a surveyor document it. I would take photos of the resins label to show the type used, and as it was be a applied to the tank, and one photo that shows it is your vessel being worked on, this way there is no question that it was done. Kevin is a great guy and knows his fiberglass, he is one of the speakers we plan to have at Bertram Pride '06. 1979 Bertram 33' FBC ALEXANDRA Port Richey, Florida [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... xandra.jpg[/img] HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR BERTRAM PRIDE '06 yet? DO IT NOW... SPACE IS LIMITED!

Post by **dougl33** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:23 am

quote:Originally posted by dougl33 Unfortunately, until some definative testing is done, Lee's comments will hurt more than help as some writer at either XYZ Boating Magazine or worse an adjuster from ABC Insurance Company will take this as gospel and continue to perpetuate the issue without really having any concrete evidence or a possible explanation. My meaning in the above sentence was not to find fault with Lee's comments, but to state that some idiot at a boating magazine or an insurance company will twist his statements as Boat Useless already has. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]

Capt. Ed · Post by **Capt. Ed** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:32 am

Doug, I feel that Lee's comments can only help! As it has sparked a great deal of attention to something very important to us all, regardless if some reporter cannot get it right, (they seldom do anyway). As for how it was taken, I only passed your words on without comment saying there were a few questions, and I did not even use your name. I am glad you had a chance to speak with him, he needs to know how much we respect him and his knowledge. 1979 Bertram 33' FBC ALEXANDRA Port Richey, Florida [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... xandra.jpg[/img] HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR BERTRAM PRIDE '06 yet? DO IT NOW... SPACE IS LIMITED!