Boat US safety Alert

BECCA ROSE · Post by **BECCA ROSE** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:06 pm

http://e-diesel.org/#A1 Here comes the E-diesel fuel. Bill 33 FBC Ipswich, Ma. [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... a_Rose.jpg[/img]

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:27 am

I never thought of this before.. but each of us with diesels really have a problem looming on the E diesel horizon!!! Inserted into the Ediesel Consortium web site info is a nasty and very dangerous comment most of us would miss easily.. I had to read it several times before I broke out into a sweat. When you go to the above link, and then click on the tab labeled "About E diesel fuels" and then go to #10 "Are there any special safety precautions when using E diesel fuel".. note the last comment, which I have inserted below... Are there any special safety precautions when using E diesel? "The addition of ethanol to diesel fuel lowers its flash point. Diesel fuel is a Class II flammable liquid. E diesel blends, like gasoline, are Class I flammable liquids and should be handled as such. There is the potential for an ignitable fuel vapor/air mixture to exist above E diesel. This should always be kept in mind when handling E diesel fuels. Recent tests have shown that flame arrestors installed in the vehicle’s fuel tank fill line will reduce the risk of the fuel vapor creating a hazardous situation. Personnel who work with E diesel blends, including fueling personnel and service/maintenance personnel, should be thoroughly trained to understand that E diesel blends carry a greater flammability risk than standard diesel fuels." This means that the long understood safety factor of diesel fuels in boating applications wherein engines and fuel tanks are located in poorly ventilated small enclosed spaces will disappear.. making our diesel powered boats no more safe than gasoline powered boats. What do you think will happen to our insurance rates? Will we need to modify or change our Racor type fuel filters or other fuel system components? How about grounding systems? The traditional safety feature of diesel fuel vapors being not as flammable as gas vapors is going to disappear! If our pre-mid eighties fibreglas diesel fuel tanks are subjected to the same failure and engine contamination problems as the gas boats are, and the E diesel fuel vapors are as flammable as gas.. you can start to rethink the whole diesel/gas comparison from a completely different point of view! Frank B - IRGuy@aol.com "Phoenix" 1983 FBC!

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:35 am

I just lifted this link from the Bertram 31 forum.. http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaane ... hanol.html It seems the aviation industry is having heartburn over methanol in gasoline also. Frank B - IRGuy@aol.com "Phoenix" 1983 FBC!

Post by **dougl33** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:18 am

Looks like ethanol is coming to VA: http://www.deq.state.va.us/info/ethanol.html I like the part about keeping water out of tanks as the ethanol "may" mix with the water and lower the octane or make vehicles run unacceptably! Our Govenrment hard at work. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]

Post by **dougl33** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:43 am

and yet another vote against: http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]

photo finish · Post by **photo finish** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:08 am

http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/11/markets ... tm?cnn=yes

BottomLine · Post by **BottomLine** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:07 am

I have been following this topic here and the more extensive discussion that is going on on www.bertram31.com. While the jury may still be out on the issue of whether ethanol will have an adverse effect on the composition of the older fiberglass tanks there seems to be a pretty good consensus that ethanol will play havoc with the "sludge" that has built up in the tanks over the years. It may be prudent to get the tank cleaned in any event. Has anybody had their tank cleaned or know what is involved? Who does this type of work? What is involved? Approximate cost, etc? Mike Ford

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:18 am

BottomLine... I recently bought a diesel B33 with a full tank of fuel which is almost all two years old.. and have asked the yard where I am presently about having the fuel "polished", which as I understand involves recirculating the fuel through high quality filters. I am told this is supposed to both clean the tank during the recirculation phase and flter out of the fuel suspended dirt, water and biological gunk. The quoted cost was aprox. $2.25/gal.. almost the same cost as buying new fuel. I am not 100% that this is a full tank cleaning though.. my real concerns were about the suspended growth in the old fuel. Frank B - IRGuy@aol.com "Phoenix" 1983 FBC!

BottomLine · Post by **BottomLine** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:59 am

Frank: From what I know and talking to owners, "fuel polishing" is a diesel fuel process that does just what you wanted. I should have been more specific in my post since I have a gas boat and was wondering what can be done for cleaning gas fuel tanks. It seems that the ethanol problem is not that the gasoline needs cleaning but that accumulations which have adhered to the tank over the years are being released by the interaction with the ethanol and gumming up valves, injectors, carbs, etc. Mike

Capt. Ed · Post by **Capt. Ed** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:57 am

Down here I have used company called "Long Hose" for cleaning up fuel, or 'polishing' as it is also called. All that they do is come out with a motorized pump with a low-micron filter and a water separator. They open up the sending unit port, remove the unit and drop a pick-up hose in, then removing a vent hose they run a return hose to it.recirulating the fuel though the filters. I have seen some larger vessels that used transfer pumps to do the same thing while underway. It is for cleaning the fuel only and anything lose in the tank, but the baffles can block some of the fuel from being cleaned. To clean the tank you would have to drain it and use a solvent to remove the vanish build up. Or you could just add some E-Gas and that will clean it while you polish it. 1979 Bertram 33' FBC ALEXANDRA Port Richey, Florida HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR BERTRAM PRIDE '06 yet? DO IT NOW... SPACE IS LIMITED!

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:28 pm

Bottom Line... I understand your concerns about the crud in your gas tank being dissolved by ethanol in your gas.. but I think you have a misconception as to what the more serious problem is with ethanol in older Bertrams, Hatteras's and other boats with fibreglas gasoline fuel tanks. I understand the fibreglass tanks in boats built up until the mid-eighties are the ones with the following issue. The problem which is causing the black stuff to build up under the valve seats in engines in these boats is mostly if not totally from an ethanol soluble chemical in the fibreglass resin formulation which ethanol leaches out of the fibreglas and forms black crud in the presence of heat.. which occurs on the valve seats and causes bent stems and probably other problems, which have caused engine failures. There also have been some reports of actual gas leaking through the tank walls into the bilges of a few boats, since the ethanol is causing a breakdown of the structural integrity of the tank itself. I see above you say the jury is out on this issue.. I believe you are mistaken, and that the most pressing issue is this problem rather than the ethanol dissolving the sediment and stuff normally in a gas tank. I believe there are several links posted on the Bertram 31 forum citing research and studies on this problem. Frank B - IRGuy@aol.com "Phoenix" 1983 FBC!

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:21 pm

Frank, I have been following everything I can about this issue and have come to pretty much the same conclusion as Mike. That is, while there are some older tanks that seem to be deteriorating from the ethanol, there is still the question about the tanks possibly being defective due to bad resin or other factors, one of which could be a ratio of ethanol to gasolene greater than stated at the pump. One reason I'm still a little less than panic stricken , is that the way I see it, if our tanks can't take any METHANOL and we've been having MTBE added(which is made from methanol) to the gas for some time now with no apparent problem, I believe there may be a chance that 10% ethanol may not be all that bad for a sound tank , made with decent resins. It's by no means the best scenario I can think of but I think we'll need to see more exposure to get a real idea of what's really happening. I know that sucks pretty much and some people will have problems but I'm willing to bet that all fiberglass tanks won't melt with 10% ethanol in them. The whole thing is stupid politics and a placebo to make everyone think we're reducing our oil dependance but in the end it will settle out, hopefully with not too many exploding boats. The obvious problem will be , how do we know if our tank is compromised? I guess one way will be to check for the brown goo and to sniff the bilges for fumes.

lobsta1 · Post by **lobsta1** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:28 pm

Frank P, I agree a lot with your comments. However the problem is that even if the tank doesn't collapse, we are playing russian roulette with TWO engines (plus a genny) all running off ONE tank. I'd say the odds of me winning that game are a lot worse with my 1978 than with your 1987. If I lose the game it gets real expensive, real quick! Al 1978 33 FBC NITES OFF

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:05 am

Al, I realize I'm in a little better position than you and some others to take the chance but I believe that even if I did have an older boat I'd probably be taking weekly fuel samples as my first course of action, along with maybe trying to clean the tank. Remember, there must have been literally thousands of boats running on ethanol in the last couple of years, maybe more. Certainly they didn't all have fiberglass tanks but it's a fairly small percentage of boats with fiberglass tanks and some boats that didn't have fiberglass tanks that had problems. The bottom line is, I need more information and I'll be monitoring my boat closely before I jump to any conclusions.

BottomLine · Post by **BottomLine** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:25 am

Frank, Al: Appreciate your comments. I haven't decided what to do about my tank (1978)but it seems that not every boat with a pre-1985 fiberglass tank that has used ethanol has experienced the problem, at least so far. It seems like there are two issues: (1) older tanks may suffer structural degradation exhibited by the black "goo" on valves, carbs, etc. and (2) tanks of any age being "cleaned" of varnish and other deposits. It seemed to me that monitoring of the older tanks would be helped if varnish and other deposits were cleaned out. Then, if any goo starts showing up you could fairly conclude that it was from the tank itself and not built up deposits. Mike