Sea trial results... Part 1

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:15 pm

As I have said in other posts we did the sea trial on the 83 FBC I have made an offer on last Thursday afternoon.. it was my first ride in a 33 Bertram in about 15 years and that one was gas. This boat has '99 Cummins 6B's 315 HP, with 500 hours. Also as I have reported previously the owner has not maintained the boat's systems well at all, but seems to have taken pretty good care of the engines using a local diesel Cummins dealer. I will verify this soon. It was not possible for me to do everything I would have liked because of the time constraints of my friend who was actually my advisor for the sea trial, but I will be on the boat again next week with the engine surveyor and will spend a lot of time asking questions and looking over his shoulder. The trial was conducted with the owner and his father aboard, as well as the broker, my friend, and myself. so, there were 5 normal sized adults aboard. The fuel tank was full (250 gal estimated, ie: aprox 1,800 lbs). No fresh water. I have mentioned before that the owner did not seem to know how to care for the boat.. when I asked about a maintenance log all I got was squinty faces and the question.. "What is that?". The owner's father, elderly and totally clueless, but the one who seemed to do the weird things to the boat, (painted the hull with some "submarine paint" he found somewhere, hacked up the stbd cabinetry to "make more room", and glued down some cheap prefinished wood flooring in the salon in "half a day") was no help when I asked him questions, but since the owner was running the boat from the flybridge along with my friend I was in the cabin and engine room with his father I did not have much access to the owner. I would suspect his answers anyway. BTW: To put the father's input into perspective.. when I told him I discovered some delamination in the salon aft bulkhead on either side of the door, (due to core rot from water getting behind the trim piece at the bottom of the door track) his advice was.. "Oh, that is just some of the glue letting loose.. run a hot iron over it and it will glue back together". Enough said! In spite of the above the trial was, in a word.. awesome! The engines did not smoke, and performed as they should have, with no real vibration or unusual noises. At cruising 2600 RPM we measured about 21-21.5 knots, averaging up and down a 1-2 knot river current. At 2800 RPM we had aprox. 23-24 knots, and were able to get aprox. 3000-3050 max RPM. Cummins says these engines have 2800 RPM WOT, I believe indicating the boat is a little underpropped. The owner had no idea of the prop size or pitch. He thought they were "about 18" diameter!! Gauge temps were similar and normal. We did find some things that were not operating.. the fresh water tank "leaked so we removed it". It was never replaced. The old radar did not work.. but "it worked last year when we took it off the boat". One of the trim tabs came free from it's mounting hinge while we were backing, but we were able to retrieve it. The A/C worked, at least the heating side of the heat pump system worked, although the filters in the grilles were pretty much clogged. We did find a leaking engine raw water thru hull fitting (between the hull and the backing plate). There was no obvious water leaking or being slung around in the engine room. The auto helm did not work. The 5KW Mase generator (2003) worked fine, and is surprisingly quiet. The boat has oversized rudders and handled very well.. my friend, who owns a yacht sales and service business was impressed with the hull and engines. I have said here before I feel at the price the owner and I agreed on all I should expect to be buying is a solid Bertram hull and two good Cummins 6B engines. I think I have these, and possibly a little more. The engine survey is scheduled for mid next week.. I believe it will be just the broker, the mechanic and me aboard.. I will report here how that went. Thanks to all of you who offered advise, suggestions and encouragement to me.. I am approaching this deal very cautiously, since I have concerns about boat's systems due to the owner's ability and knowledge. Your comments here, and some in personal emails, were very helpful and reassuring! Frank B - IRGuy@aol.com Somewhere between having made an offer and passing papers

Capt. Ed · Post by **Capt. Ed** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:42 pm

Heck, I didn't know Jethro and Bubba were selling their yacht. Frank, glad it went well, sounds like your dealing with a real interesting pair. Onward to the next phase! 1979 Bertram 33' FBC ALEXANDRA Port Richey, Florida

Post by **Admin** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:55 pm

Sounds good Frank, we'll keep our fingers crossed for you! David Sumich 1986 SF - 33 Megabites Huntington Harbour, CA Forum Administrator

photo finish · Post by **photo finish** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:04 am

if the hull and engines are good, the other stuff can all be replaced easily . What did you have for a top ? bimini pipe welders fiberglass? did it have an enclosure?Did you pull the boat out and look at the hull? was it clean.You will probably want to change your prop pitch a little to get it down to 2800 and by doing so you should gain a knot or 2 of speed...What was your speed at 3050? Tim Stamm Photo Finish 1981 33' Bertram FBC

Post by **dougl33** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:37 am

Frank, Sounds like things went fairly well. I would not worry about being a little over-propped. If you go over to boatdielse.com, Tony Athens will advise you that its better to have the boat slightly under-propped so that you can always turn max rpm plus 50-100 rpms. The quickest way to bury a diesel is to over-load it. If you wind up buying the boat, I would get everything set the way you want it, fill it with fuel water and gear and then see what you're turning for WOT. Re-working the props would be the very last thing on my agenda. FYI: If the boat only holds 250 gallons of fuel that means that it was a diesel boat right from the factory and not a gas to diesel conversion. With all the things you mentioned, I hope you're getting it for way under their $79K asking price. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA

richcatch22 · Post by **richcatch22** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:38 am

Excellent.....No smoke, no vibrations, 3000 RPM all good. The 3000 RPM is good thing, they have not be run in an overloaded condition, a diesel engine killer. Even better seems you where overly pleased with the ride. Good luck keep it going Capt Rich Catch 22 1989 33 FBC

Capt. Ed · Post by **Capt. Ed** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:08 am

Frank, The oversized rudders are great, the reason for that is better handling in a following sea. I agree with Doug, don't mess with the props until last, and only if you really need too. 1979 Bertram 33' FBC ALEXANDRA Port Richey, Florida

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:27 pm

Just a few comments in response to those above.. The boat has an aluminum framed flybridge enclosure with a taut waterproof fabric cover which appears weathered but not worn or torn anywhere. There are fabric sides and plastic (eisenglass ?) windows, but these have not been used in a while and are all folded in the forepeak. All of this was put on by the present owner in 1999. He says the enclosure panels will fit but will need some pulling and stretching since he hasn't used them in a long time. Also, he painted over the snaps that hold the bottom edge of the panels to the flybridge so I assume these will have to be cleaned first. We only did an in the water sea trial, the engine survey is scheduled for next week, and the hull survey the week after.. so we did not haul yet, but will do so as part of the hull survey. The owner had divers clean the bottom some time in the past few days, but the bottom might not be perfectly clean now. The boat had Cat 3208's when the owner bought it in 1999, and during the delivery trip to Charleston, SC, from somewhere in GA he had some kind of engine problems so he opted to install a set of Cummins 6B's which were taken out of a 1 year old sportfish which that owner wanted to have more power in.. so he installed them with 100 hours but a full Cummins warranty, meaning he himself put 400 hours on in the 6 years he owned it.. and put only 20 hours on in the past 20 months. He said when they changed engines he took about 1,800 pounds out of the boat, so the transom rode a few inches higher.. and he immediately noticed that the shower did not drain as well as it earlier did. Re: the cost..Last year the boat was listed for about $115K.. when I first saw the boat online this past fall it was advertised for $89K.. I negotiated a much lower price then even the $79K it is listed at now. The owner was afraid I might not buy it after the trials and surveys so he had the broker knock $10K off the listing price to attract backup offers. I do not believe there have been any to date. I don't recall the speed at 3,050 RPM.. I was not at the helm then, and it was only of short duration, and since it was in a river with a 1-2 knot current I would want to measure the speed both ways to get a true through the water speed. As far as being somewhat underpropped, if this is indeed the case (we used the tach gauges, not a strobe tach, so the readings might not be 100% accurate) I am not really concerned if I am giving away a couple of knots.. I have read a lot of Tony Athen's comments.. and will trade a little speed for a few hundred more engine hours. I don't yet know anything about the prop sizes or pitch, and I forgot to measure the shaft diameters.. which the owner did not know. Yes.. so far I am pleased.. I think the price we agreed on is fair for both parties assuming the two surveys don't reveal anything horrible. You all have been through this before.. this is my first time.. so I am a virgin! At least in this regard! So, guys, please be gentle with me! Frank B - IRGuy@aol.com Somewhere between having made an offer and passing papers

richcatch22 · Post by **richcatch22** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:36 pm

Hi Frank You seem to have taken all the right consideration and have become very well educated with the great help of the contributors of this site. I believe you will make a great deal an will become an owner that will make this Bertram one we all will be proud of. We are here to help provide technical real life experience with these vessels, there are no better than what you find here. When it comes to your final negotiated $$, you have to be happy with your deal( that’s the art of the deal). What is good for one man is not for another. As you see the price ranges drastically so it hard to compare/justify unless you see the whole picture. Good luck, keep it going Capt Rich Catch 22 1989 33 FBC

sbeer · Post by **sbeer** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:11 pm

Hi Frank, Good luck. Hope everything go's as planned. I was reading your posts about how much paint the owner had applyed on the hull and upper. Whats your method of attack in getting it back to original. Not to throw a wrench in anything, but When someone paints the boat by hand it kinda makes you wonder what he is trying to hide. Mike Mike Lawrence 81 sportfish 33' shot'n'beer

captgene · Post by **captgene** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:49 am

Sounds like Jethro and Bubba are going to get 'em a brand new SEA RAY! As long as this boat's hull & power are mechanically sound, the rest is replaceable. When I bought mine, several buyers had walked away, because the interior wasn't pretty. The previous owner's wife said the wood was too dark. So it looks like they turned their 3 yr old loose with a light wood stain inside the boat. One of those things I said I'd fix when I had to repower it after I gutted all the cabinets, etc to get new engines in & out. That was 5 yrs ago, and they keep on ticking. So it isn't much better now than when I bought it. We just never take the thing off line long enough to do that stuff like the guys up North. I use my boat every week 12 Months a year and spend all my time on the mechanical things. I $uck at carpentry...anybody want to trade mechanical work for wood work? Gene Dugan

Capt. Ed · Post by **Capt. Ed** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:18 am

Frank, From the way you have described their ability to remodel, perhaps Jethro & Bubba should look at one of these here fish'n boats... [img]http://www.bertram33.com/images/uploads/redneck fishing boat.jpg[/img] 1979 Bertram 33' FBC ALEXANDRA Port Richey, Florida

Miss B · Post by **Miss B** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:35 pm

Your redneck boat looks about as good as what you see in boating magazines today. You can take a shoebox, put some cup holders on it and fill the rest of it with manure, and some boating magazine will run a four page full color spread on it telling us how it will run at 30 knots top end, that it will flatten a 3-4 foot chop while running out the cut, it will turn on a dime, backs down straight as an arrow, and gets 3 miles per gallon while running at 2600 RPM and 24 knot cruise speed. In my opinion, the age of integrity in boating tests is long gone. I see no other purpose for a boating magazine today than to sell advertising space to the big five manufacturers. It doesn't matter what Dave Pascoe or others write about poor layout, cored bottoms, bad engineering, dangerous fuel tanks, structural problems, bad motor mounts, or anything else. Some boating magazine that you actually pay a subsciption fee to, or get for free, will run an article telling you that this is the best must have boat of the year. Kind of sad isn't it? I am tired of the same dribble, featuring the same models wearing the same clothing designer on the cover of every boating magazine. I miss ole' Dick Bradley, who used to write his "On Board" column from Faro Blanco. He took no prisoners, and told the truth about boating. That is why forums like Bertram 33 are so important. You learn the real scoop here, from guys who have been there and done that. What would happen if a boating magazine ran an article and told us: "Look men, this boat is poorly built, has design and structural problems, the warranty isn't worth the paper it is printed on, the dealer has untrained staff and lacks adequate support from the factory, and there is no way in heck even a 130 pound guy can get down in the hull to change a fan belt on a water pump in any kind of seaway, you will never get your money out of it, and frankly, if you go to sea in it you will place yourself and your family in peril." Do you think you will ever see a truly objective article about a new boat in a boating magazine? In my opinion I don't think we ever will. Kind of sad, isn't it?

photo finish · Post by **photo finish** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:55 pm

Well Said! Tim Stamm Photo Finish 1981 33' Bertram FBC

Capt. Ed · Post by **Capt. Ed** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:21 am

Well stated Tom. It is a sad fact, which is not just confined to the marine industry, but is present in just about any other publication and news media on the market today. Say good things about those who advertise with you (paying your bills) and create controversy that will sell more issues, papers or increase viewership seems to be the media industry’s standard mantra. However, like nature, evolution creates balance, which is why forums such as this, and Blogs have come about, allowing the truth and facts to see the light of day. Which has some manufactures concerned as the truth about there product(s) is being told without the standard spin. I guess this would be a good time to say THANK YOU David for creating Bertram33.com and helping us all via this forum! Ed 1979 Bertram 33' FBC ALEXANDRA Port Richey, Florida