Diesel conversions

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:24 pm

Since I`ve had my boat I have to admit I`ve been lusting for the economy(such as it is)and the cruising speed of diesel engines. I know that some guys here are happy with gas engines in general and would be happier if they had the new breed of big blocks with the supposed gas mileage increases they offer and of course the added power. I cannot tell you the heated discussions we`ve had at my shop , about the negatives of diesels and how dis-appointed I`ll be with the smell and noise of them. Of course the nay sayers aren`t looking at the reports of everybody with yanmars and the like, cruising at 24 knots while burning 18 gallons an hour. I am especially interested in seeing what the new smog regs are going to do to the new engines for the noise and smoke that are almost always part of the diesel package. I`m assuming that the engines will be like they are in any new diesel pick-up truck, really clean burning. The question I have is, how are the diesels out there doing? There have to be several of you guys with diesels out there reading this. How good is it?Do your wives hate the smell, or is it not a problem? Have the yanmar engines lived up to the promises? Or are they smoking more and making more noise as they age? Some of this is inevitable, I know. Also, what kind of fuel burn do you really get? With real numbers from flow-scans, not just cruising most of a day and using X amount of fuel. I`m intereted in hearing any stories about repowers of B33`s and the long term pluses and minuses , gas or diesel. I`m not too interested in other types of boats because it confuses the subject. I also know that this subject has been talked about endlessly here before but what doesn`t seem to be discussed are the social aspects of different types of power, the smell, noise and vibration especially. Frankly, it`s going to be hard to talk me out of diesel engines when I can afford it but I`m all ears. Frank Price `87 SF "JEANNE CLAIRE' Rowley Ma.

Post by **dougl33** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:45 am

Frank, If you convert to diesels in the next 2 years or so, will you cut me a deal on the quiet Westerbeke you just got? BTW, If you're really interested in switching, you should keep and eye on the classified's on boatdiesel.com. I've noticed they have some pretty good deals from time to time. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

GMarty · Post by **GMarty** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:43 am

Very interested in this topic as I am very close to pulling the trigger on converting. Having done some research, I am most likely going with Cummins. Which model etc is still an open discussion. Who does the work is somewhat of a problem for me given I would rather have my yard do it for obvious reasons (like em, need em, want to keep them loyal etc). That said, it is way too much $$ to get emotional about it. Any Mass / RI recomendations would be appreciated. As for the "new gas is as good as diesel" discussion; that is hogwash and everyone knows it. Yes, the cost is different but the result is equally as different. Beyond the fact that gas explodes and diesel does not, it is simply a better way to power a boat this heavy - especially if you care about range. I thought about simply buying a new boat but that seems to open a can of worms. I looked a few 37's thinking "when I am all done I will have almost this much invested". Also hogwash. Awesome boat but a new level of costs (to be continued when I turn 50). My question is, am I making a terrible financial decission in that the FBC does not have that great a reputation among Berts and I am worried I could get hurt badly down the road. I am set to spend the money and realize this is inherently a bad money decision, but have some concerns about the FBC holding value. We may love the boat, but I have run into more than one skeptic on this particular boat. Thoughts?

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:36 pm

Doug, I`m not ready yet but you`re the first to ask, so you`ll be the first I offer it to. I do love that genset. GMarty,I`ve had a lot of the same concerns about value. I know I`ll be into her for a little more than she`ll be worth but , like you I`ve looked at the alternatives. Boats the size of ours have some advantages, like being able to take them out alone if necesary. I watched all the 42ft plus boats this summer and they went out way less than I did, partly I`m sure because it`s more work , although they do seem to have a pretty good time at the dock.Also , if you do decide that a 33 ft boat will do the job and by the way, as far as sea keeping goes, I was out on a 1998 40 ft Ocean a month ago, and believe me, it had nothing on my Bertram except interior size,and those diesels were pretty nice. So I think I can live with the size as long as I don`t live ON it. I already know they`ll make it to Florida and back without much trouble but with gas engines it would cost about 4-5000 bucks in gas EACH WAY. I`m also thinking about my future earning potential.I`m 48 now and can`t imagine I`ll be getting a whole lot more productive as I age , so a bigger boat would strain my finances faster , making the day when I need to go to a smaller boat that much closer. Another argument I hear alot is that you can buy a lot of gas for what diesels cost. True but if we start using that kind of logic, where does it end? I mean, it`s cheaper to buy fish at the store than to fish for them. It`s cheaper to drive an older car than a new one, etc. If we keep going with this logic, we`ll get tout of boats all together .Besides it`s not the cost of admission that hurts, it`s the keaping cost of the things. I think twice about going somewhere when I know it`s going to cost three hundred bucks to get there but if it costs a hundred , it`s not a big deal. I know that once I spend the money for the engines, I`ll never give it another thought. One more thing. during the summer a guy at my marina sold a 33 bert convertable (`87) with cummins 330`s for $120,000 that he had converted several years ago. It was a pretty clean one but I`ve seen better. It showed me that the money can be there for a diesel boat.Maybe not all the money , but not that far off. I`ve yet to see a really nice late Sport Fish with newer diesels for sale so I can only guess that most people hang on to them. Frank Price

captgene · Post by **captgene** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:07 am

I have been kicking this around for a couple of years now myself. In one of these conversations I metioned that a friend of mine spent about $70.K in converting a 32 Lurhrs Open. He is totally upsidedown in this thing, but he say he doesn't care. Was the best thing he ever did. They couldn't use the mufflers of the old 454s so they go straight out the back. Sounds like a work boat. Still doesnt care..best thing I ever did. I love my Bertram, I can barely afford this boat. Can't downsize, the family won't get on anything else after this. so, the SMART thing is to repower with diesel (Yanmar 315 or Cummins 330), bite the bullet and be happy. I'd have to finance the boat to do it...but I'm about to that point. Biggest issue, is those 340s keep on ticking. E.W. Dugan

GMarty · Post by **GMarty** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:59 am

I would not draw any conclusions on value based on the 32 Luhrs your friend has. The fact that he is upside down on a diesel conversion should be no surprise. And he should have known that going in. FWIW, I fished on one and was generally unimpressed. My concerns about value do not stretch beyond the realtive reputation of the 33 FBC in terms of Berts, not boats in general. I think these older Berts have such a great reputation that selling one all done over is easy. Again, I was concerned that the 33FBC is not considered their best effort and that may taint the value, or worse, make it tough to sell. Is this a valid concern??????? I do not think so but do not want to find out the hard way! I sold my wife on this idea based on new boats being pieces of crap. I cannot see why that theory should not hold up in the market place. In the end, I would be in for about $150 and be looking at many years of hassle free boating in something I could be proud of owning. By contrast, the guy next to me bought a 29 Seaswirl for about $140. When the 2 boats are next to each other, well, it is a joke to think they could cost the same. When you look at that way it seems like a no-brainer!

captgene · Post by **captgene** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:21 am

Exactly, If you like the Boat, and plan on keeping it several more years, my instinct says go for the diesels. We went to the Ft. Lauderdale show. The 45 Bertram with Mans was 1.032 Mil! Beautiful boat, but $$$$. The wife was laughing for an hour after comparing the 33 to that price. E.W. Dugan

Post by **dougl33** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:19 am

While I generally agree with whats been said and I love the idea of diesels in my 33, the problem I have is with having $150K or more into the boat. Don't get me wrong, I do love the boat. I've had my eye on the 33 FBC ever since I saw a write up in Motor Boating & Sailing when I was a kid. That being said, if I was going to put that much into any boat (not just the 33), I would rather spend another $15K-$30K and get a 37 Bert that already has diesels and avoid the headache of a conversion. Overall, its just a better fit for what I'm looking for in a boat. I think the botom line is that if you absolutely love the boat and its a perfect fit for you and you don't plan on moving up (or down) for a number of years (probably 5-7) then do the conversion. On the flip side, if there's any doubt anout how long you'll stick with the boat, then sell it and buy one that already has diesels. Gmarty, As far as what your money gets you in a new boat, I couldn't agree more. 3 years ago, my brother spent $160K for a brand new 3000 Pursuit Offshore with 8.1 Merc gas motors. No gennie or electronics. Nice boat to be sure and a rocket. The same year I bought my 86 FBC for $82K. As far as I'm concerned there's no contest as to who got the better deal. The kicker was when we had my brother and his new wife out on my boat on a somewhat choppy day. As I was cruising along at 19 knots, I overheard her say to him, "I think this rides better than our boat." I did my best to keep a straight face. My 2 cents. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

GMarty · Post by **GMarty** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:04 pm

I cannot agree. Getting into a 37 will result in way more cost than you suggest. It is not as simple as saying spend another 30 grand and get the 37 or I would have already. First off, a nice one is about $210. Second, a not so nice one brings the need to update a bigger boat into play (at some point). Third, slip goes up, fuel goes up, complicated systems that need to be fixed go up ec etc. It is a new ball game all together.

franklyprice · Post by **franklyprice** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:03 pm

Guys, I agree with all of you. You all have good points and , like everything else , it comes down to what we want. We`ll justify it somehow . I still would like to hear from anyone out there who has new engines in their B33`s , gas or diesel. Or for that matter, any one with old cats. Fuel useage, noise, etc. A testimonial to the wisdom of their particular choice. It`s become pretty obvious to me that our boats were really designed to have diesels but are functional with gas engines. The fact that the hulls don`t really start to work until you hit twenty knots kinda tells you that you need the torque of diesels. I know Doug cruises regularly at twenty plus but I can`t afford it. I spend all my gas money on the expensive slip while he had the foresight to get a free(almost) one. As far as the price of new boats, I think that these older Berts are hidden gems.The boat next to me at the marina, a 3 yr old Grady with outboards was on the market for $119,00. The gel coat already looked worse than mine, and the boat was a day boat for God sakes. After a few years , they`re all used boats and then the quality(or lack there of) starts to show.... Frank Price

Post by **dougl33** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:20 pm

Gmarty, I have been looking at 37's (and 38's) for a long time. Half of the 37's that are on yachtworld have been there for at least 1-2 years. Some longer than that. Now, whether that means that they're not actually for sale is another story. Either way I'm pretty confident that I could get a decent 37 for under $200K. As far as the slip and yard storage is concerned, it would only cost me an extra $592 per year. I'm not sure about insurance, but I'll guess it would be an extra $600 over the $1600 I'm paying now. Extra money for fuel is debatable. Diesel cost less and burns less. Granted in the N.East this year there was not a huge difference in price. While the DD's burn quite a bit of fuel, the Cats probably burn no more than our Mercs at a greater cruising speed. Finally, although diesels (mains and gennie) will cost more to keep up than gas, what are the additional complicated items on the 37 that my 33 doesn't already have? I guess it all depends on what an individuals situation is. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

captgene · Post by **captgene** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:30 am

I totally argee with a move to the 37. Basically the same layout. There are some out there that probably can be had for around the same price. I'd look into one that had the mains majored within a year or two, and fairly new Gen set. a lot of them have 671 ti's in them, and those usually get tired a about 3000 hrs. Just because they pump them up to so much hp. N's np, but the boat wouldn go. I also find that changing boats results in 2 yrs. of getting everything fixed the way you want it. At least that is what it took me in the 33 and my previous boat. Not to mention the hassel of selling present boat. It took me a little over a year to get the right 33 and a couple of surveys, not to mention dealing with a lot of brokers. I think I've had enough of that. My .02 worth anyway E.W. Dugan

GMarty · Post by **GMarty** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:33 am

Well, you make good points and I do love that 37. Plus, I am way hooked on the offshore fishing thing. But, that 2 year peroid of getting things "how you like them" is what worries me. When I went from my 28 to the 33 I sold myself on the idea that the slip, fuel etc would only go up marginally and I was so wrong. My educated guess is that going to the 37 will be a big change in costs.

Post by **dougl33** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:45 am

At the very least, maintaining diesels can be much more expensive than maintaining gas. I've never owned diesels, and everyone that has a pair say that its the way to go, but it seems you really have to be on top of things to prevent a catastrophic failure. Some of the diesel owners say its easy, but I've read a lot of posts on other sites about having to replace injectors and so forth after so many hours and so on. It seems a little daunting. With gas, you can always get a long block for fairly short money. With diesels you seem to need to be willing to pay big time. Of course, burning 30gph with the Mercs stink, but if you don't need the range, then $50Kplus buys a lot of fuel. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth

Post by **dougl33** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:48 am

Actually, I was checking my numbers from my earlier post and I found that I made a mistake. My slip and storage fees would not have increased by $592. That would be my new total. The increase would have been an additional $64 per year over the $528 I'm currently paying. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth