First batch of E10

Justinf89 · Post by **Justinf89** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:55 pm

Well about two weeks ago, I was forced to put my first fill up (from empty) of ethanol gas in my 1977 fiberglass tank. Many have said it's fine and many said your screwed. I want to know straight up, whats the deal. Are there any warning signs I can watch for before my valves warp and such? Can I look in my filters every couple of hours? I realize I have a pretty old tank and as of now, ethanol is going in it. Believe it or not, my primary filters are 2 micron, that's whats in there when I bought the boat in December and have only changed them recently, unnecessarily. Of course, until 2 weeks ago, I haven't been using the cleaning agent fuel either! Sorry to start another thread about gas tanks guys, this one will be short and sweet. Thanks for the help in advance.

Post by **dougl33** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:44 am

Justin, It's hard to say exactly what will happen. When Al pulled the tank from his 78 FBC, there was already delamination taking place and he never used a drop of ethanol. Perhaps the tanks aren't as "forever" as once thought. Unfortunately, there's no early warning for the "classic" ethanol re-lated issues. IF the ethanol starts to effect the tank, it appears to leach the resins out of the fiberglass and passes these through the fuel filters and into the combustion chamber. When the engine is hot and running there's no issue. It's when the engine cools that problems start. Some of the guys that were effected early on pulled their intake manifolds and said there was some sort of goo that they found there. My theory is that tank degredation only occurs if there's enough water in the tank to allow phase separation to occur. This seems to be backed up by the testing that Frank Price has done on Rick Shaefer's old 1985 tank. If you keep the water out you may be OK. If you use an additive like Startron or K100 it may help with water in the tank. Others will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think these additives are supposed to help by keeping any water in the tank mixed with the fuel and allows it to be burned off through the combustion process as opposed to settling to the bottom of the tank and taking the ethanol's alcohol with it (that's phase separation). Wish there was more I could tell you. Good luck.

Justinf89 · Post by **Justinf89** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:46 am

Correction to my original post(can't edit): Secondary filters are 2 micron. Doug, do you know if it's best to keep the tank topped off with the ethanol gas in conjunction with startron? The boat will be fed E10 from now on, what a shame. Thanks.

Post by **dougl33** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:19 am

Can't say one way or the other. I never let my fuel tank stay much past half empty for very long (either with my old gas motors or current diesels). That had nothing to do with ethanol, just me not trusting the guage. I would make sure that the gasket for your fuel fill is good and tight so water can't enter that way. Personally, I feel that water accumulation in a fuel tank due to condensation is a bunch of bull sh*t. Any water in a fuel tank was either pumped in or came in via a leaky deck fill gasket. BTW, I don't "know" anything for sure. These are just my opinions. Its up to every owner to educate themselves and take what they feel is the appropriate action given their intrepretation of the available info.

Justinf89 · Post by **Justinf89** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:39 am

Well I appreciate all the great opinions.

CB35 · Post by **CB35** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:52 am

From what I have seen you are pretty much screwed. The older boats had had trouble pretty quick. The first thing you may see is being harder to start, plus rough running. I have seen two boats that had the tanks start to let go. The intake valves were coated with a black/brown residue. Before any damage was done the heads were pulled and solvent washed. If I remember correct one was cleaned in place with brake cleaner. I believe the problem lies with the chemicals used in the resin and the catalyst. The catalyst such as butanone peroxide is added to the liquid polyester resin to promote polymerisation, get it hard. This reaction,polymerisation, depends on mixing, temperature at mixing, and mixing ratios. The polymerisation is never 100% and I believe the ethanol just starts to dissolve the unreacted or partly reacted monomers. I don't think it has much to do with water content. Years ago a buddy cut open a tank on his son's 25B. Th tank was starting to delam. He west epoxied the bottom and sides. The tank held up until it got ethanol gas. It broke down quickly and fouled the engines. They were not too bad and we got them running again on aux tanks. If your engines make any different sounds pull the carb and look for goo.

Bob S · Post by **Bob S** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:57 pm

Justin, You can't really tell what is going to happen and if you talk to 20 folks your likely to get at least ten different ideas. I can tell you what I did, not that it is right or wrong. I replaced my motors in 06 with new FI gas engines. Old tank was in place. I replaced all fuel lines except the fill. Used ethanol from day one, (all that was available). I changed filters every 25 hours for two years. I found an unbelievable amount of crap in the filters each time, looked like coffee grounds, and the fuel was colored redish orange. Over time the level of crud did diminish but it never went away. I decided this year to replace my tank because I didn't see a marked improvement in the filter debris but the tank looked clean on inspection. I figured that it was the right thing to do to protect the motors and certainly it would be the first question asked if and when it goes on the market. I will say that I never had any indication that the fuel or problems were effecting performance of the engines. In fact I pulled plugs and examined and everything looks great. So now I have new engines and a new tank and I no longer worry about it.

rnanaples · Post by **rnanaples** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:19 pm

Just put my first load on this am ran 2 hours just waiting for the clank. Ran fine I will keep everyone informed as i plan on monitoring cloesely

Justinf89 · Post by **Justinf89** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:01 pm

Good luck Rich, I'm still on edge.

rnanaples · Post by **rnanaples** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:42 pm

Did you pull the old tanks apart ? quote:Originally posted by Bob S Justin, You can't really tell what is going to happen and if you talk to 20 folks your likely to get at least ten different ideas. I can tell you what I did, not that it is right or wrong. I replaced my motors in 06 with new FI gas engines. Old tank was in place. I replaced all fuel lines except the fill. Used ethanol from day one, (all that was available). I changed filters every 25 hours for two years. I found an unbelievable amount of crap in the filters each time, looked like coffee grounds, and the fuel was colored redish orange. Over time the level of crud did diminish but it never went away. I decided this year to replace my tank because I didn't see a marked improvement in the filter debris but the tank looked clean on inspection. I figured that it was the right thing to do to protect the motors and certainly it would be the first question asked if and when it goes on the market. I will say that I never had any indication that the fuel or problems were effecting performance of the engines. In fact I pulled plugs and examined and everything looks great. So now I have new engines and a new tank and I no longer worry about it. Bob Stansell 86 SF "Apres Ski" Cohasset, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... s_Ski1.jpg[/img]