Grey Plastic Water Lines - Qustion

Brian Davin · Post by **Brian Davin** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:33 pm

Recently I was routing some new cables behind my shower wall and I found a 3 way coupler for the Grey Water Lines had a cracked nut that was leaking. This line brings water from hot water tank to shower and then onto sink. Anyone have an idea where I can get this same style grey 3 way coupler?

h2ojst · Post by **h2ojst** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:52 pm

It's just a standard polyethylene "T" compression fitting & your local plumbing supply should stock it. Joe Tomaini 1988 Sportfish Attitude Adjustment II Fort Lauderdale, FL

Miss B · Post by **Miss B** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:38 pm

Or, you can go to your local Home Depot and get a "shark grip" tee fitting and push the lines on with no tools and forget about it. The shark grip fittings work like the old chinese fingers and grip until you release them.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:08 am

Bryan.. Sorry to hijack your thread, but this is on the same subject. Since we are talking boat plumbing here I would like to ask what system have you guys used in replacing or repairing your boat plumbing.. I am looking at installing all new plumbing on "Phoenix". I have seen a couple of "snap together" systems at building supply stores.

h2ojst · Post by **h2ojst** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:11 am

Frank, I'd use the new SeaTech fittings in 15MM if starting from scratch. You can color code the tubing for hot,cold,& S/W runs & the fittings are the ones that were mentioned above. They just slip together & a collet holds them tight. The difference between the SeaTech ones & home depot is that the "teeth" inside the collet are stainless & are easier to take apart for servicing once you put them together. They make all kinds of fittings and adapters for the pump & tank connections as well. Joe Tomaini 1988 Sportfish Attitude Adjustment II Fort Lauderdale, FL

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:06 am

Thanks Joe.. I will check SeaTech out.

schultz · Post by **schultz** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:30 am

I took some of the original gray plastic fittings to some plumbing stores this summer. All of them never saw anything like it before. I needed to reroute water lines from the FWP to the hot water heater to the manifold under the head sink, take the head shower out of the system, run hot and cold lines back to the aft deck to insall the new shower system and replace lines for new faucets in both the head and galley. It's rare to find something that I'm pleased with for the boat at Home Depot but the Shark Bite fittings took care of all the plumbing issues. I was able to use copper, existing gray plastic lines and new pvc along with flex hose as well with hose clamps as needed. Great product.

otf · Post by **otf** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:08 pm

You could take PVC to Home Depot and they might not have a clue what you are talking about... Find a real plumbing store, pay what it cost, get to know them and you will be happier for a long time. When you have something unusual they will figure it out for you. Sorry, I own a local nursery and that was my rant on big stores.

Brian Davin · Post by **Brian Davin** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:26 pm

Lots of great input, thanks everyone. Nice to have a couple of quick and easy alternatives. I've got my marching orders!

captgene · Post by **captgene** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:31 am

I found a whole section of parts for these systems at BoatOwners Warehouse, if you have any in your area. They had it in two sizes. Gene Dugan Boca Raton, Fl. "Nauti Marie" 1989 33 FBC 2007 8.1 Crusaders

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:37 pm

Thanks Gene!

Brian Davin · Post by **Brian Davin** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:46 pm

I've stuck out with Home Depot Tiger Bite and Sea Tech. The 3 way union I need goes from 1/2" to 3/8" & 3/8". Tiger Bite is 3/4" and 1/2" in these unions. Sea Tech only has 3/4" to 1/2" & 1/2". Boat Owners Warehouse has some fittings, but not the 3 way tee with reduction. I found what I needed on PlumbingSupply.com which has the Qest QickTite connectors. During my internet search I found lots of interesting information on the gray water lines. I believe they are referred to as Polybutylene. Apparently they are no longer used for a variety of reasons. Interestingly, they don't react well with Chlorine so that should be a caution when flushing the system in the spring. Not that I do this, but the one caution I took away from all the articles I found was that it probably is not a good idea to leave the fresh water system switch on when away from the boat, in case of line failure, nor should you leave a shore line water hose connected to your cockpit water connection inlet with pressure feeding the system for the same reason. See attached commentary from a Company that specializes in replumbing house that have Polybutylene Plumbing (they're slightly biased): MORE THAN 60,000 SINGLE FAMILY HOME RE-PLUMBS COMPLETED BY THE NATION'S LEADER IN DEFECTIVE PIPE REPLACEMENT! WHAT IS A POLYBUTYLENE REPIPE? Polybutylene repipe is a complete replacement of the defective polybutylene potable water system in a home. All pipe, fittings, stop valves and supply lines are replaced with either Flowguard Gold CPVC (Delta recommended pipe), Copper or Aquapex (not available in all states). Most re-pipe jobs take around 4 days, with minimum interruption of water service (up to 4 hours daily), ensuring the livability of the home. HISTORY OF THE POLYBUTYLENE PIPE Polybutylene water pipe was used in the construction of millions of homes and commercial buildings in the late 70's through the mid 90's while the construction industry, in many of the warmer states, was flourishing. At that time the co-polymer plastic pipe was considered to be the "pipe of the future" used as both underground water mains and interior water distribution lines, when it suddenly started to fail causing devastating losses for many homeowners across the nation. WHAT MAKES IT FAIL? What causes polybutylene pipes to deteriorate can be attributed to the oxidants in the water. With the increased usage of chemicals like chlorine and other bacteria fighting ingredients significantly more failures occurred. These oxidants react with the polybutylene making it brittle and help in the development of micro cracks in the pipe that cause pipe bursting and severe floods. HOW TO FIND OUT IF YOU HAVE POLYBUTYLENE? Interior Polybutylene pipe is easily recognized by its bluish gray color. Coming in from the outside this pipe will typically be attached to your main shutoff valve located close to your hot water heater. Just looking at the pipes may not give you any indication that there is a problem because the erosion and cracks start on the inside of the pipe. Be aware, what appears to be okay, may not be! It's not a matter of "if" but a matter of "when" your polybutylene water system will fail. WHY YOU MUST REPLACE THE DEFECTIVE POLYBUTYLENE PLUMBING? IT ALWAYS FAILS. Polybutylene is proven to be a defective pipe and it is rather a matter of "when" than a matter of "if" it is going to fail. IT LEADS TO CONSECUTIVE WATER LEAKS. Once your polybutylene pipes start failing, that is usually followed by more water leaks and damages in a short period of time. CAUSES SEVERE WATER DAMAGES. Polybutylene pipes leak two ways. The most obvious is when the pipe bursts. It is the most noticeable and if you're very lucky you will find it quickly and stop it before extreme damage occurs, or if you are not so lucky a lot of damage can happen quickly. But more likely than not, you will get a pinhole leak that may go unnoticed for extended periods of time and will have the same cumulative effect as a burst line with the added problems of mold that can grow unnoticed as well. REPAIRS HAVE NO GUARANTEE. A polybutylene leak is a symptom of a failed system that needs to be replaced. A repair is only very temporary buying time until the system replacement can be done. It is not even worth it to make repairs to Service Lines or leaks under concrete slabs. LEADS TO PROPERTY VALUE DECREASE, HIGHER INSURANCE COST OR EVEN INSURANCE POLICY CANCELLATIONS. Also found these frequently asked questions on PlumbingSupply.com site with an attached article: "I purchased some 1/2" and 3/4" pipe, but I'm not sure how loose or tight they should be. How should I tighten the nuts on the couplings?" Tighten until they squeak, and turn a 1/4 turn more. Don't over tighten, and you'll have a connection that will last trouble free for many years and can easily be taken apart and reused. "Can I use the above fittings to mix copper and polybutylene pipe?" The above Qest acetal fittings fit over copper, cpvc, PEX (crosslinked polyethylene) and polybutylene pipe. They have a stainless crimp fitting and an acetal compression sleeve that fit over any of those pipes. You can have copper on one side and cpvc on the other side of the fitting, etc. They are very easy to use. They are more bulky than the old insert fittings and for tight places they might not fit or work. "Are the above repair fittings to code?" These fittings work great but are not code in many areas. In some areas they are code but in most they may not be used in walls (as with most compression like fittings). "When did polybutylene become unavailable?" Shell Chemical Co. no longer supplies polybutylene resin for pipe applications in the United States that was effective April 16, 1996. "What is your opinion of polybutylene?" Due to us potentially getting dragged into a lawsuit we cannot really give you our opinion. Here is our leader's personal view (this is his opinion only, and not to be taken as advice or viewed as in any way him/us promoting or encouraging the use of P.B.). He is talking to myself here, and is not giving advice about P.B.: "If I have up to 1 ppm of chlorine in my water, and if I only have copper or brass insert style fittings, and if I only had copper rings then I'd love P.B. piping for my own house. Of course it would have to be installed correctly and with as few fittings as possible. I have seen lots of defective copper, CPVC, PVC, ABS, galvanized piping, etc. but that was not the fault of those particular products either. From what I have seen in my many years in the plumbing trade (has taught 10 College Plumbing Courses, been a Plumbing Contractor till 1977 and for over 20 years a plumbing distributor), I believe P.B. has had problems. Some insert style acetal fittings have failed. With high concentrations of chlorine in the water there might be a potential problem. With aluminum rings there also might be a problem. Polybutylene has some major good points as well: Less water hammer, resistance against freeze damage, insulating qualities, it's quieter than metal piping." "What is your opinion regarding the future supply of polybutylene?" Until the end of 1998 we thought that unless Shell changes their mind, there was absolutely no chance of anyone selling polybutylene in the United States for potable water. In early 1999 we received an email from someone who wrote (but we do not know if this has any truth to it): "Shell have passed the resin to Montell in Belgium. Shell own 50% of Montell but are selling the share back to Montell." If this has merit then possibly there is a chance that p.b. will someday become available in the U.S. We do know that there are many people who love this piping product. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Polybutylene: Bad rap or bad actor? BY JULIUS BALLANCO, P.E. - Plumbing Engineer A DOUBLE STANDARD exists for the acceptance of plastic pipe. Once upon a time the homeowner called his plumber to take care of leaking pipes. Today he's more apt to call his lawyer first. Then the plumber. Or maybe the lawyer calls the plumber. Is polybutylene as bad a piping material as the lawsuits claim? As bad as the TV newspeople report? As bad as the metal pipe manufacturers allege? Of course not. Polybutylene is perhaps the most tested water piping material there is. Because of difficulties in gaining acceptance, the polybutylene industry had to do all of that testing. True, there have been failures in PB piping systems. But there have been failures in metal piping systems. Nobody's invented the perfect water piping material. Having worked as a plumber, I've fixed leaks in all kinds of pipe and tubing: copper, brass, galvanized steel, galvanized iron, lead, ductile iron, CPVC plastic.... I'd hate to go to court for every leak I've fixed. I'd spend all my time in court. The only material I've never repaired is polybutylene. PB, like every other pipe material, must be properly installed and used within its limitations. As with the others, there will be failures. But they're not catastrophic. Much of the negative publicity about PB has been generated by lawyers and non-PB competitors. If the television show "L.A. Law" is any indicator, lawyers certainly can twist the facts in a case. Every plumbing contractor knows why a competitor publicizes failures of the other guy's products. Plumbing contractors are street-smart enough to realize that everyone -- manufacturers, competitors, lawyers -- speaks half-truths about piping materials. They emphasize and play up the side of the story that works to their advantage. PB Pipe is just one of several plastic pipe materials that's been subjected to a double standard. Metal piping, traditionally, has had an easier time gaining code acceptance. [Aluminum dwv is an exception.-Ed.] Some local codes still don't accept PVC, CPVC, PB, PE or PP. Politicians often defend their jurisdictions' codes, saying, "We don't want our citizens' homes to have that cheap junk; we want our housing to keep its high value." Whatever happened to freedom of choice? Why is plastic pipe always referred to as cheap junk? One plumber told me plastic pipe is considered cheap junk because we remember the cheap plastic "Made in Japan" toys we had as kids. The analogy seemed appropriate until I thought about what "Made in Japan" means today. Plumbers and the public in general should equate "plastic pipe" with high quality and good performance. We don't question use of plastic in other products. One of the most sought after cars, the Corvette, has a plastic body. We prefer plastic skis to those of wood or metal. The same goes for boats, canoes, eyeglasses, even park benches. In evaluating plastic pipe, consider it the way you would metal pipe. What are its pluses and minuses? It's the performance of the pipe that should determine its acceptability. I often wonder what it would be like if history were reversed. Imagine if plastic pipe, joined with strong solvent cement forming a homogeneous bond, were the only accepted piping material. Now suppose the copper industry came forward and said, "We have this new pipe. To join it, you clean it, add flux, heat it to over 400Â°F, and add solder. When it cools, you have an acceptable joint. Imagine the questions the plastics-oriented code bodies would ask: Does the joint form a homogeneous bond? What if you touch the pipe when it's hot? Can't the solder crack? How can the joint be inspected? Can't the plumber get burned? Isn't it dangerous if the solder drips on the plumber? What happens in a corrosive environment? Could the acetylene tanks explode? Should a plumber be carrying pressurized gas on his truck? Or, to go one better, imagine the cast iron industry coming forward with a new pipe called extra heavy cast iron pipe. A lO-ft length of 4" pipe weighs "only" 160 lbs. It has a bell hub at each end. To join the pipe, you pack a hemp rope in the joint, force it down tightly by beating it with a hammer and some special tool. Molten lead then is poured over the hemp rope to hold it in place. "You want to pack the joint with what!?" - The author, president of JB Engineering and Code Consulting, is a registered engineer in Illinois, Indiana and New Jersey and a licensed master plumber in New Jersey. Shell was the manufacturer of Polybutylene resins in the U.S. DuPont was the manufacturer of Delrin - the acetal material for older P.B. plumbing joints ANYWAY, I'll probably replumb my system eventually with Sea Tech as this seems to be the new standard.

Post by **dougl33** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:54 pm

Do you have an abridged version?

Brian Davin · Post by **Brian Davin** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:06 pm

Sorry! Only read first 3 paragraphs for highlights, but the rest is informative if you have any issues with your water system. Also, the nut on my 3 way tee behind the shower wall has been leaking for some time and rotted the wood strips that the back shower wall screws too and has even started to rot the back corner of the wall between my shower and the bathroom sink. I'm replacing the strips with 1" x 1" starboard, but haven't decided how to fix the wall yet. One other note, for anyone getting water in your forward bilge and don't know where it is coming from, it could be a leak coming from the water lines behind the bath/shower wall as mine did.

otf · Post by **otf** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:41 pm

I think you are just bragging that you have a shower. It is a really interesting piece (if you are intrigued to read it) on plastic plumbing. I've always found the copper piping in plumbing amazing, watch a plumber put it together and you can't help but say there has got to be an easier way.