Gas Tank....any verdict reached ???

skyking · Post by **skyking** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:14 am

Ed trying to get my e-mail forwarding set up here at the boat please resend your email to: bluech1p@comcast.net thanks Ken AIM: skyking4ever + 3 hrs. EST

skyking · Post by **skyking** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:24 am

Hey Doug, Thanks for the reply.....I can't draw fuel from either of the 3 pick-ups (2engine 1genny). I moved the boat from Branford Ct. to here in Wetbrook Ct. using a temporary tank...engines ran good. I just don't want to have this problem next spring. Since we cruise with BC (mainly use it as summer house)&(and I don't want to miss the whole summer) I'll do the replacement in the fall. Where I winter store is inside and some tools are available too. So I'd like to get all my "ducks lined up" and be ready to go come Sept. A friend who is a very talented mechanic has done several tanks (even a 370 Cummins repower on a 35Bertram sez I can do it my self and he'll give me a hand. But I'd like to order the tank and have it ready to try and aviod timely delays. Also thought SS fuel tanks were a "no no" ???? Thanks gain Doug....boat runnin good w/those 330's I'll bet !!!!!! AIM: skyking4ever + 3 hrs. EST

ginmax · Post by **ginmax** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:25 pm

Hey guys thought I'd jump in. I am rookie Bertram driver (or soon to be). Settled deal in mid-May on 85 FBC, went right to yard for tank change out, don't want to leave anything to chance with 130hrs on new mercs. Spring commissioning rush over, finally had tank pulled just last week, confirmed measurements (same as Al's 85 SF), yard placed order this past Monday for Aluminum replacement. Of course replacing all supply, vent and fill lines. Ordered dual flo-scans last week to replace tach's....all said this should be peace of mind for any fuel issues for a time. Since deck is up providing access to area any suggestings as to PM or find and fix, i.e. exhaust hoses, muffler/clamps, etc.

Post by **dougl33** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:28 pm

Ken, I'm not so sure that you're tank needs to be replaced. What your describing are not the "text" book symptoms of ethanol destroying the tank. Certainly something is going on, but I'm hoping we can save your tank and money. Do me a favor and answer a few questions for me: 1. When did you take on your first load of ethanol? 2. How much of the old MBTE gas was still in your tank? 3. Did you use any kind of fuel additive (startron, K100, etc...) prior to taking on your first load of ethanol? 4. How many tank loads of ethanol did you run through last summer? 5. Did you use any additives when you took on additional loads of ethanol? 5. How many hours did you run last season? 6. How much fuel was left in your tank last winter? 7. Did you use any kind of fuel stabilizer? Jeff, Can you still change your order to a stainless tank if you wanted to? I'm not so sure aluminum is the best way to go. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]

lobsta1 · Post by **lobsta1** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:06 pm

Ken, Have you been picking up "coffee grounds" in your fuel filters? There is a screen on the bottom of the pickup tube. That could very well be plugged. If you have the coffee grounds, then your tank could be breaking down from age. When I cut my tank up I found a number of the baffle rivets corroding. That was also allowing gas to permeate between the laminations. Jeff, the 85 SF belongs to Rick. Those measurements for his tank are valid IF you raise the tank up a little with glass & the 3/4" pvc strips that Rick used. Otherwise the tank would have been resting on the pvc tubes that run under the "wings" on the tank. We cut out a plywood pattern of the tank & verified this before the tank installation. On the two outside stringers Rick glassed in platforms that were on a higher plane than those tubes. With the deck up, you might want to redo bonding wires & the stuffing boxes including the rudders. I'm also surprised your tank is the same measurement as Ricks as the FBC & the SF have different stringer height & placement. Here is the thread on Rick's install. http://www.bertram33.com/forum/topic.as ... hichpage=5 This is the thread on the NITES OFF. http://www.bertram33.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=885 Good Luck & Welcome to the B33 family. Al

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:11 am

I've seen a few of the coffee grounds in my racor bowls too, and my tank has never seen gasoline. I thought (hoped) that is a fairly normal thing, as I've heard others report they had those while not having FG tanks in their boats. Sean Burlingham "Island Time" 1987 Bertram 33 SF Melbourne, FL SBurlingham@cfl.rr.com [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... d_Time.jpg[/img]

skyking · Post by **skyking** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:39 am

Doug 1- took first load of E10 approx. 6-05 about 150 gals. 2-would guess about 165 gals. of old MBTE (if in fact I have a 315 gal. tank). 3-have never used any type of addative. 4-I would guess I used about a total of 500 gals of E10 last season plus what I used to top-off in the fall of 06 for winter storage. 5-have never used any addatives. 6-ran about 15 hours at cruise power (3200 rpms) 15 hrs. X 35gph = about 500 gals. 7-last winter I stored boat w/full tank (all of which was obviously E10) 8-did not used any fuel stabilizer. I've had "BC" for 10 years, and the boat before I bought new and had for 19 years.....I've never added any addatives or fuel stabilizers and never had a problem (till now !!!!!!) I thought SS fuel tanks were a"no no" Also...If Rick S or Al L wouldn't mind chiming in 1-did you just pump out as much fuel as possible before pulling tank ??? was there still a bit of fuel (read gasoline fumes) still left in tank. 2-where are the seams in the bridge ladder (on my 82 FBC I'll have to remove ladder to remove cockpit cover. 3-not sure if my cockpit cover was ever removed, but it looks to be sealed in w/silicone sealer and many screws.....was it dificult to remove the cockpit cover ??? 4-is removing the tank in one piece the preffered method...and how did you "pop" it out if it was glued in place. Thanks again to everyone .... my wife has talked me into keeping "BC" so now I have to figure out how to get this gas tank replaced. I'm planning on doing almost all of the work myself...so I'd like to know what I'm in for. and thanks also to the guys who posted the pictures of their tank replacement projects ...a huge help. AIM: skyking4ever + 3 hrs. EST

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:37 am

I'm no expert on this topic but I think you are not supposed to mix the MBTE gas with the ethanol gas, and are supposed to store the tank empty once you're on the ethanol. Those two things might be contributing to your problem, which might not necessarily mean that you have a bad tank. You might have a tank full of phase-separated fuel though. Sean Burlingham "Island Time" 1987 Bertram 33 SF Melbourne, FL SBurlingham@cfl.rr.com [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... d_Time.jpg[/img]

skyking · Post by **skyking** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:47 am

Sean thanks for the reply. So what is the solution to this phase seperation problem ??? And do we now store out boats with empty tanks....thanks for the input. Ken AIM: skyking4ever + 3 hrs. EST

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:58 am

Once you get x amount of moisture in the ethanol/fuel, the ethanol/water separates from the fuel, never to be mixed together again.... i.e. Phase Separation. So you end up with an alcohol/water soup layer which you can't burn and will stall your engines, and then some fuel that has too low an octane for your engines. Unfortunately the only solution I'm aware of is to pump it all out. Maybe if it is layered nicely you could pump out only the soup and add some more ethanol to the remaining gas, but I'm speculating here, not speaking from experience. That's the situation you are avoiding by storing the fuel tank empty. Leaving it exposed to moisture through the vent system all winter is a bad idea, because the ethanol keeps sucking moisture from the air during all that time. I'd say to look up "phase separation" on the b31 site but their search function is currently broken. Go there anyway and read through the special ethanol section. There is a lot of good info. Sean Burlingham "Island Time" 1987 Bertram 33 SF Melbourne, FL SBurlingham@cfl.rr.com [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... d_Time.jpg[/img]

Post by **dougl33** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:15 am

Ken, I think the problem you're seeing is from mixing the mbte and the ethanol. Mixing the 2 is supposed to be a no no. It sounds like you've got some sludge built up in your tank that I'm guessing was caused by mixing the 2 types of gas. I think another contributing factor was not using an additive (startron or K100) to help remove water and other crap from your tank prior to using ethanol and while using ethanol. Finally, it probably would have been a good idea to use a stabilizer last winter as ethanol supposedly has a much shorter shelf life than the old MBTE. I think you were probably OK storing it full, though empty may have been better. Storing it half full would have been a definate no no. Let me ask you another question, where did you take on your first load of ethanol? Did they drain and clean their tanks like they were supposed to? If not, you probably pumped a lot of crud from their tank into yours. I called all the marinas in my area to see if they did the proper prep work. Some did, most did not. Not trying to be a wise ass, but it sounds like you pretty much did everything wrong when it came to ethanol. I know that's harsh, as it can be hard to know whom to believe with all the bull$hit everyone is spewing about ethanol. If I were you, I'd see about getting some one to drain your tanks, vacuum the crud from the bottom, change the fuel water seps, and clean the pick-ups. Once everything is clean, add some Startron and fill up the tank. If you have not already done so, you should read this entire thread as it spells out the fuel management steps that will more than likely get anyone through the ethanol debacle: http://www.bertram33.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=448 As far as phase separation is concerned, if there's no water in the tank then there's nothing for the alcohol to separate to. That's why its important to use Startron or K100 every time you take on fuel. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]

Post by **dougl33** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:16 am

Sean, No offense, but there's way more usefull and thought provoking insight on this site than there is on the 31 site. People on this site (myself included) have actually spoken with a lot of the players involved. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]

ginmax · Post by **ginmax** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:41 am

Doug, Whats the scoop on Aluminum?

Post by **dougl33** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:49 am

Jeff, The thinking behind not using aluminum is that because ethanol is hydroscopic (that is it attracts water) that aluminum may not be the best material to use as it is much more likely to corrode than stainless. Basically, since ethanol can attract water, the possibility exists that you could wind up with water inside the tank and that the tank could fail from the inside rather than the way aluminum tanks generally fail (i.e. from the outside because they're either sitting in a bilge full of water or they're up against a stringer and gets worn away). Of course, if you're careful about where you purchase gas and you use either Startron or K100 everytime you fuel up, then you greatly reduce the chance of actually having any water in your tank. Hopefully Al and Rick will chime in on their reasons for going with stainless over aluminum. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:55 pm

quote:Originally posted by dougl33 Sean, No offense, but there's way more usefull and thought provoking insight on this site than there is on the 31 site. People on this site (myself included) have actually spoken with a lot of the players involved. Regards, Doug L. No reason to beg forgiveness for a possible offense. But I think I may have offended you somehow? I was only trying to refer the guy to some pertinent information that was easily accessible. There is an entire section there devoted entirely to ethanol…. easy to find. I thought I was doing the guy a favor by directing him towards such easily accessible and pertinent info. That was all I meant. I never tried nor meant to draw a comparison or competition between knowledge and available information at the Bertram site. I didn’t know there was a competition or a disparity at all. ??? Sean Burlingham "Island Time" 1987 Bertram 33 SF Melbourne, FL SBurlingham@cfl.rr.com [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... d_Time.jpg[/img]