33 FBC Family Fishing/Cruiser?? Newbie

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browny0386
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33 FBC Family Fishing/Cruiser?? Newbie

Post by browny0386 »

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for the add to the forum! My wife and I are in the market for our next boat, which will be our 4th. We're not new to boating at all, but this will be our first "big" boat. We started out looking at the cabin cruisers, but they're just not to my taste. We need room for our young family, of soon to be 5 late this summer, that will accommodate us for overnights, some weekends and maybe the week-ish long vacation here and there.

I truly stumbled on the layout of the 33 FBC when looking at a Luhrs 36 and someone mentioned the Bertram models. I've known about the name and quality that appears to follow it but, to be honest, my knowledge stopped there. We live in the WNY region near lake Erie and Lake Ontario, so our main priority is somethings that can handle the Great Lakes when they kick up, something that we can salmon fish (troll) with, and something that is safe and reliable. We will fish 30-40% (if that) of the time, spend weekends here and there (20%??), cruise to GL ports, Niagara, Toronto, Rochester, Buffalo etc., and want to take a longer trip to 1000's islands NY once a year or every other year. The 33 seems to offer a lot with the FB giving an awesome layout for a relatively small boat.

I have a ton of questions, which I'm sure I will not all get out at once, so thank you in advance for taking the time to read my open thoughts/questions, and possibly taking the time to share some wisdom.

GAS/DIESEL:

I know this is a question that can/will start a war, but I got back and forth constantly on it. Do I need a diesel boat for my fishing trips with my son, short cruises here and there (within 60 miles each way), and driving out to the lake to throw and anchor and relax? No, I probably do not. However these are heavy boats and my head says that 22K pounds is a lot for older 454's to push around. I've found a few models, that are fresh water boat, with merc 7.4L's in them. One is in impressive condition, but has 1800 hours on the mercs - is that too much? I've had 7.4's in the past (single i/o) and it had 1100 hours, which started to scare me. The compression checks out on all the cylinder but still at 1800 hours its getting up there, isn't it?? Diesels will perform better, but are at least double the price initially. Also, most if not all diesels we've found are in salt water so need a little more TLC.

Should I even entertain original big block gas'ers??

ECONOMY:
This is a big one, as I do not want to sit at the dock. I'm not buying a boat to save on fuel but also don't want something that cant pass a fuel dock.
The gas will offer crap economy but at a much lower initial cost. However if the engines are at the end of their life I'm playing with $40K to replace new gas'ers or reman cummins, so where is the savings? The diesels would shine on the longer cruises, and for the runs to 1000's (180 mile each way) or through the Erie canal system. But at slow speeds, for longer cruises, at ~8-10 knts, will there be a big difference in economy? Also, being this is a seasonal weekend warrior (maybe 40-50 hours a year run time) will diesels degrade prematurely from sitting?

I've read that most diesels are cruising at 23-24 knts while burning in the low 20 gph range, while the gas'ers are cruising at 19-20 kts at 30ish gph, thats a big difference. Will the diesels offer a decent economy at hull speeds, sorta like trying to play trawler for the day? I'm very curious on this as we're not in a hurry to get places once we're on vacation.

SAFETY:
Lake Ontario can get kicked up and rolling quickly. From everything I've read the 33 FBC seems to handle more than the crew can. I assume these boats would be a good candidate for GL weather? With soon to have 3 kids under 6, we want to make sure that if we need to get back to the marina, it can be done safely.

THE COST OF AGE:

I know we're looking at older boats, late 80's - 90, many of which are repowered. If repowered correctly with diesels, is there a lot to look out for? I've read the hulls are solid glass, but will need to look out for soft coring on cockpit deck, aft bulk head etc. Are there any areas that are prone to leaks to also look out for?

Besides dock fees (3000-ish) a year and fuel, what other upkeep fees are we likely to inherit with these older boats. I know this is an somewhat open ended questions but we're not planning to run to the canyons (aren't any) or head south, but are trying to get an idea of what a 33 FBC should cost a year to own.

Again, I'm only hitting the tip of the iceberg here but with the above goals in mind, do you think the 33 FBC is a good fit?

Any other advice you can throw our way is greatly appreciated.

Thank you!!

- The Browns
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Re: 33 FBC Family Fishing/Cruiser?? Newbie

Post by Admin »

Hi Ryan, and welcome aboard. Now that is a first post! Also, you really did some good research too I can tell.

I think some of the other guys will provide more in depth answers, but here are some quick hitters...

GAS/DIESEL:
ECONOMY:
Each has pros and cons. I have gas myself. Main thing to consider with them is age. 1800 hours is a lot. You can do rebuilds for probably $25k - $30K for both (including trans, shafts, etc.). The biggest gotcha to look out for in gas 33s is age. If the boat is pre 1986, your tanks are going to go bad with the ethanol in today's fuel due to the resin used by Bertram prior to 1986. I found out the hard way that includes some very early 1986 models like mine (January). So if you are looking at pre-1986, you need to find out if they replaced the tank (which is glassed in at 320 gallons), and if so, with what and what is the new capacity. Aluminum and Stainless Steel are the two common options, both add weight. My boat has a marlin tower and punches in at about 22k lbs. I can cruise at 21 knots and get about 275 miles per full load of fuel. I think the 30 GPH is probably pretty accurate. I'll let others weigh in on Diesels.

SAFETY:
There is a reason they coined the term "Bertram Weather". You'll be hard pressed to find a hull in this class that takes a head sea like ours do. That being said, be aware that because the bridge on the SF is further up, you will definitely feel like you are pounding. On the FBC, it's not nearly the same issue, so since that's what you are considering, you should be fine. Side roll on our boats is "unfortunate" I'd say, but you get used to it. :D

COST OF AGE:
The hull is where things matter most, and these hulls hold up insanely good. Each time mine comes out for bottom painting, not a crack to be found. I will gladly accept that type of performance in exchange for the cockpit flooing issues (like many, I have some soft spots, but nothing too bad really). The other leak many suffer (luckily I don't) is the front window.

I have an SF model, which changed significantly in 1986 (bulkhead moved back, and floor plan altered). I am not sure if the FBC went through a similar thing in the salon at anytime, but on the bridge the oldest models had a funky config (sorry Al).

You've come to the right place though, let me tell you. The folks here will inundate you with info! So jump on in. If you can't find the answer here, I don't know if you ever will!
David Sumich
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Re: 33 FBC Family Fishing/Cruiser?? Newbie

Post by browny0386 »

Thanks, David. I really appreciate the reply!

You're pretty much right on with what I expected on those gas motors, at 1800 hours. Even though the boat is beautiful with fresh water its entire life, by the time I put the rebuild money into it I'll be at or more than what I could start off in a diesel at. There are a few on the east cost with low hour re-powered Cummins 6BTA's, that are attractive. They're just not in as pristine shape.... guess I'll have to spend more time at the marina fix'n her up, damn!

What is the general consensus on max hours on the Merc 7.4's? There is another one with lower hour gas'ers but I think they're asking over $80K, which is more than any other diesel on the market right now. Hell, I think I can almost step into a 37 at that stage.

Everything we're looking at is 87 and on, so that sounds like we should be in good shape on the refits and possible tanks issues.

Thanks again!
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Re: 33 FBC Family Fishing/Cruiser?? Newbie

Post by SeaDrive »

All the boats that are out there now have been on the market for a while. The 33FB with cummins in NY for $56K was listed for $46K last year so someone is trying to flip it as nothing has bee done to it. There was some conversation about that boat here so if you do a search you should find some info on that boat. As for gas there is one that was repowered with Crusader 8.1 425hp on YW in Virgina would be a boat with gassers that I would look at. She should cruise easily at 22-23 knots or more and having MPI engines would get decent fuel ecconomy. Most Gas boats with the older 7.4 liter carbed engines get anywhere from .5-.65 NMPG at cruise of 17-19knts. Below are the 2 boats I mentioned, good luck.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/b ... n-3596213/
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/b ... s-3544435/
Boatless on Cape Cod but looking.
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Re: 33 FBC Family Fishing/Cruiser?? Newbie

Post by dougl33 »

Welcome aboard.

I've got a diesel powered FBC, so I'm a little biased, but I think diesels are the way to go (especially w Cummins). I think that 87 is a great deal at $56K.

The speed, fuel economy, and ease of maintenance on diesels makes a huge difference. Oil, oil filters, fuel filters, impellers every other year or so, done. No pumping the throttle or running the blowers to start. Hit the starters and a half second later, they're running. Clutch speed with the diesels is outstanding as well. My boat had gas engines when I bought it, but I re-powered it w Cummnis after 5 seasons and it was the best money I've ever spent on the boat. Second best was the hardtop.

All of the other foibles you've mentioned are right on (spongy cockpit, rotted bottom of aft cabin bulkhead, etc...). The only other things I'd mention are the velocijet exhausts on gas boats (they become detached from the inside of the hull over time) and the cockpit cleats will need to be re-glassed.

I think David misspoke, as the FBC is actually a foot taller than the SF at the top of the wind deflector on the bridge so it's got a higher center of gravity. Will it rock more at rest, sure. That said, I've been out in some nasty shit up in the NE and I've never felt unsafe. These boats will take more punishment than you'd be willing to accept yourself.

The 2 stateroom layout on the FBC (1980 or later) is very flexible as is the tournament style bridge (82 or later I think).

I remember when I first bought my boat back in 2002. It had gas engines and it burned 32gph (per the the flo-scans I installed) at 3200rpm for 18.5-19 knots. At that speed, the wake just starts to flatten out as the boat is completely on plane. Could I have slowed down to burn less fuel, sure, but the ride is so much better the faster you move. People thought I was crazy to burn that much fuel, but if you're worried about fuel economy, don't buy a big twin engined boat with a wave crushing hull that needs to be fully on plane to do it's job.
Regards, Doug L.
1986 33 Bertram FBC Cummins 6BTA's Queen Elizabeth
Marblehead, MA
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Re: 33 FBC Family Fishing/Cruiser?? Newbie

Post by Admin »

dougl33 wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:09 am Welcome aboard.

I think David misspoke, as the FBC is actually a foot taller than the SF at the top of the wind deflector on the bridge so it's got a higher center of gravity. Will it rock more at rest, sure. That said, I've been out in some nasty shit up in the NE and I've never felt unsafe. These boats will take more punishment than you'd be willing to accept yourself.
Yeah, I meant to say side roll at rest. I'm sure my tower doesn't help matters. Underway, this boat is a dream, though as I said, the SF feels like it is pounding a bit. It's like a muscle car with stout suspension. 8)
David Sumich
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Re: 33 FBC Family Fishing/Cruiser?? Newbie

Post by browny0386 »

SeaDrive wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:08 am All the boats that are out there now have been on the market for a while. The 33FB with cummins in NY for $56K was listed for $46K last year so someone is trying to flip it as nothing has bee done to it. There was some conversation about that boat here so if you do a search you should find some info on that boat.
Thanks for the reply. I have looked at that repowered 33 in VA, as well as the NY repowered with cummins. Per your suggestions I found last years post on that exact boat for sale, very interesting. It is odd that the gauges are not the same as the exact same repowered boat down in FL, as well as some other odds and ends.

Without paying for a survey, is there any real way to determine how well the repower was done or if was a complete hack job?
dougl33 wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:09 am
People thought I was crazy to burn that much fuel, but if you're worried about fuel economy, don't buy a big twin engined boat with a wave crushing hull that needs to be fully on plane to do it's job.
I'm not worried about the fuel consumption, really. I hate the saying, but, it is what it is. There's just something about fueling up more than you "need" to do that bugs me. The diesel would just give us a better range and/or the ability to run at higher speeds longer.

What are you burn rates with the Cummins? Have you ever done a longer cruise at hull speeds? Very interested on what those number might be.

Also, say we bought a nice gas boat with the intentions of using it till the engines crap out, and the repower with diesels. Any idea on what the repower all in would be (shafts, trans etc.). I see David $35K range for gas, looking at 45-50K for diesels? That number might be tougher to swallow being over $80K on older boat.

https://sandusky.craigslist.org/boa/d/p ... 30161.html - this is why I ask. At $30K in need of a refresh or repower.

Also, off topic but, any input on the "Never Say Never" boat? I saw it sold up north about two years ago, and now back up for sail, but still asking over $100K, repowered with Yani's. Nice boat, but $100K?? Aren't Cummins more sought after than Yani's anyhow? We saw it for sale on you tube, and I told my wife that if I found that boat I'd buy it, then found it and almost choked.

Thanks again.
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Re: 33 FBC Family Fishing/Cruiser?? Newbie

Post by lobsta1 »

A few years ago we had a rendezvous in Provincetown, Ma. (about 50 miles open water) I left Ptown same time as Doug & Frank Price. They both have Cummins. They left me behind as they were runnung at 23 kts & I was at 18 kts. A few days latter I was talking to Doug & commented that it was a little bumpy for the 1st half of the trip. He didn't know what I was talking about since at 23 kts their boats were up on top of the chop while I was hitting each wave. It wasn't uncomfortable, just noticeable. At cruise I burn 32 gph. The Cummins guys burn about 20 gph.

My Mercs were rebuilt by the previous owner in 1998. They have about 1000 hrs on them since them. In the last few years I replaced the heads on both engines due to problems from the exhaust manifolds. I found out that the speed shop that did the rebuilds originally did some crappy work. Last season after all my work the boat is now running better than at any time since I bought her in 2001. If you're willing to turn a wrench, the Mercs normally only need a top end refresh.
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Re: 33 FBC Family Fishing/Cruiser?? Newbie

Post by SeaDrive »

Thanks for the reply. I have looked at that repowered 33 in VA, as well as the NY repowered with cummins. Per your suggestions I found last years post on that exact boat for sale, very interesting. It is odd that the gauges are not the same as the exact same repowered boat down in FL, as well as some other odds and ends.

Without paying for a survey, is there any real way to determine how well the repower was done or if was a complete hack job?

So I actually contacted the broker of the boat in NY a while ago asking about who did the repower and this is what I got back. The Broker doesn't know its Cummins and not Cummings but thats beside the point.

Done by Superior Diesel.... Dealers for Cummings, Yanmar, Caterpillar and Westerbeck

If repower was done by a Cummins dealer I'm sure you can contact them and probably get some info.

Jon
Boatless on Cape Cod but looking.
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Re: 33 FBC Family Fishing/Cruiser?? Newbie

Post by dougl33 »

My thoughts on re-powering.

If you want a boat with diesels. buy one that's already been done.

I re-powered in 2007 because my engines at 1300 hours on them, the rear main seals were leaking, and ethanol just came out. I new if I re-powered with 8.1 fuel injected engines (I think they were $13K+ per engine with gears) that I'd also replace the fuel tank (which I hated the idea of doing). I got a deal on a set of running take Cummins with brand new gears for $22K'ish. For me the math was easy. All in, after selling my gas engines, gennie, old props, etc...) I was right around $50K for the conversion. I also knew that I was sticking with this boat for the long haul as it checks off all of the boxes for me and that cost really wasn't an issue. This will be my 19th season with it and I'll probably keep it for another 10+ seasons.

Bill Dunlop repowered the same time but under slightly different circumstances. His old 33 had been "totaled" the previous fall due to an explosion at a paint factory near where his boat was stored for the winter. He bought a bank owned 89 FBC for short money and put in brand new Cummins. Not sure what his total outlay was, but it probably was less than $100K (remember, this was 13 years ago when values for 33's were much higher).

Frank Price also re-powered at right around the same time with his own set of circumstances. He was able to buy a pair of Cummins that needed to be rebuilt and did the rebuilding and install himself so his total costs were much lower than either mine or Bills.

With the current values, I just don't think it's worth it to convert.
Regards, Doug L.
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Marblehead, MA
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Re: 33 FBC Family Fishing/Cruiser?? Newbie

Post by browny0386 »

All very good advice. I'm going to keep looking for a diesel power. Once the Covid restrictions break free and its safe to travel to the NYC area again, I may take a look at the one in NY. If anyone knows of others that are out there, please feel free to share.

Thanks again for the advice, if there is anything else we should keep an eye out for on our search for a 33, we're all ears!
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Re: 33 FBC Family Fishing/Cruiser?? Newbie

Post by dougl33 »

Browny,

I don't want you to think I'm down on gas powered boats (I'm not). I think you could buy one and be very happy with it. In fact, if it hadn't been for ethanol, I'd probably be running around with a set of 8.1 Crusaders right now.
Regards, Doug L.
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Re: 33 FBC Family Fishing/Cruiser?? Newbie

Post by browny0386 »

dougl33 wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:02 pm Browny,

I don't want you to think I'm down on gas powered boats (I'm not). I think you could buy one and be very happy with it. In fact, if it hadn't been for ethanol, I'd probably be running around with a set of 8.1 Crusaders right now.
No I understand completely, and know you're not downplaying gas boats. To be honest, part of me just simply wants a diesel boat. Some of our plans for while our kids are young, and still like us, is to take them through the canal system of NY from the Niagara region to NYC to see the Statue of Liberty from their own boat - I think it would be an amazing trip/experience. Also to take cruise through the Trent Severn system on the other side of Lake Ontario, in CA. On longer trip like this, it seems like the diesels would really shine on fuel burn and cruise speed getting to the canal system across Lake Ontario. It also seems that all the gas powered boats are right around the 1000 hour mark (lowest 850hrs on mercs), so they're getting a little long in the tooth. The money to rebuild eventually would exceed that of a lower hour diesel with a few thousand hours left offer. A few thousand hours would last us a very, verrrrryy, long time.

When we pull the trigger on our next boat, it'll be in the family for the next 15-20 years (fingers crossed), as it really checks off everything we're looking for. We're in our low 30's, I'm knocking on the door of mid 30's, so this boat should get us into our mid 50's where we will look for something larger to really start to travel/cruise on once the kids are out of college. I know I'm playing the perfect scenario card here, I understand much can change in between now and then, but if we do find a diesel powered boat that'll work, we may still be on the same engines in our mid 50's. I don't think I can say the same for a gas powered boat.

The exception is that '85 repowered with 8.1's, with 450 hours, down in VA. That might be a possibility. Are there any GPH numbers on repowered boats running 8.1's? I read that Jon (DeaDrive) stated they should get decent economy.

Thinking out loud, while running slow or trolling, is there a large difference in fuel burn with diesels vs. 8.1's?
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Re: 33 FBC Family Fishing/Cruiser?? Newbie

Post by h2ojst »

Browny, I did a 100% stem to stern refit back in '05-'06 on my 88 SF and installed new Merc 8.1's. With a lot of tinkering and prop changes I'm able to cruise at 20+ at around 3200 and about 32 on the pins at about 4600. (burning a ...hit ton of fuel) After 1500 hours & 14 or so years, I'm still happy, but if I had to do it all over today, there's no way that I'd even consider gas motors. For what you can buy a diesel boat in decent shape today, you're far better off. Believe me, and Doug and Frank will certainly agree that I'm a gas guy through and through. Good luck on your search. You certainly won't be sad that you're a Bertram owner no matter what you eventually choose.
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Re: 33 FBC Family Fishing/Cruiser?? Newbie

Post by Rick »

OK, so it's time for another gasser to chime in here !

First of all, welcome aboard Browny. You're one of the most knowledgeable newbie's I've seen here, so I hope that we can help get you into your dream. I agree with everything above, diesels by far are the most solid, fuel efficient engines you can run with in the boats and yes, to some extent I'm a bit jealous.

But they come with two caveats IMHO:

1. They are expensive to repair. A guy on my dock that has a set of 3208's (I know they're cats and not cummins) just paid $11K to redo his after coolers. The guy who had Doug's engines before him paid $5K for a Bosch fuel pump.....for $5K I can get an entire long block. In the Northeast, our season is maybe 6 months, but really only 5 as the front and back end are pretty chilly. So it's hard for me to do a $70,000+ conversion to get those benefits and justify the cost. But in your case, buying one that already has diesels with today's prices is the way to go. It's not an extra $70K and in fact a lot of them are a fraction of that.

2. They stink. I'm sorry, they stink. I go fishing with friends on diesel boats and by the time I get back I'm saying to myself "get me off this boat!". Let me qualify that though, when fishing with them I'm in the cockpit, not in the helm or up on a bridge. I think it depends where you are on the boat too. Then what makes it worse is my wife hates the smell of diesel boats more than me. Perhaps you get used to it and maybe the bosch fuel pumps make a huge difference but before buying I would definitely be sure you (and your wife) know the difference. My gas engines can be a pain to keep going, but they're quiet and you don't smell a thing.

Speaking of fuel, the prices are looking pretty good so far, huh boys ! Let's hope they stay there this Summer, pretty soon the marina's will be paying us to fill up !

I hope everyone and their family is doing well, good luck with the purchase Browny !
Rick
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