Boat US safety Alert

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dougl33
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Post by dougl33 »

Looks like NMMA is finally getting their act together: http://www.nmma.org/lib/docs/nmma/gr/en ... _Paper.doc Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]
Regards, Doug L.
1986 33 Bertram FBC Cummins 6BTA's Queen Elizabeth
Marblehead, MA
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dougl33
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Post by dougl33 »

Well, I called NMMA's offices to talk to them about this article. I was referred to John McKnight who works in NMMA's compliance office in DC. He actually wrote the article. He told me that last week both NMMA and ABYC got the Coast Guard to agree to fund a study on ethanol effects on both aluminum and fiberglass tanks. They expect to get some results by the end of the summer. He also told me that Congressman John Shadegg (R-AZ) contacted him about ethanol as he owns a gas powered Bertram that he runs out of the Long Beach area. I went to Shadegg's website and sent him an email. Hopefully something will come of it. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]
Regards, Doug L.
1986 33 Bertram FBC Cummins 6BTA's Queen Elizabeth
Marblehead, MA
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captgene
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Post by captgene »

I didn't think politics and Bertram's mixed. Gene Dugan
Gene Dugan Boca Raton, Fl. "Nauti Marie" 1989 33 FBC 2007 8.1 Crusaders SOLD 2000 Pursuit 2870 Offshore Twin 2016 Suzuki 200s
dougl33
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Post by dougl33 »

I know, but at least the guy's a republican. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]
Regards, Doug L.
1986 33 Bertram FBC Cummins 6BTA's Queen Elizabeth
Marblehead, MA
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Bob S
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Post by Bob S »

Well I have officially gone through a full tank of ethanol, (315 gals) with no issues. I intend to change the fuel filters sometime this week too see if anything shows up there. I will post results.
Bob Stansell 86 SF "Apres Ski" Cohasset, MA Image
dougl33
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Post by dougl33 »

Bob, Glad to hear it. Let's continue to keep our fingers crossed. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]
Regards, Doug L.
1986 33 Bertram FBC Cummins 6BTA's Queen Elizabeth
Marblehead, MA
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Capt. Ed
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Post by Capt. Ed »

quote:I know, but at least the guy's a republican. I second that!! 1979 Bertram 33' FBC ALEXANDRA Port Richey, Florida HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR BERTRAM PRIDE '06 yet? DO IT NOW... SPACE IS LIMITED!
1979 Bertram 33' FBC ALEXANDRA Port Richey, Florida Image BERTRAM PRIDE '07 PLAN TO ATTEND!
dougl33
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Post by dougl33 »

Ed, The more I get to know you the more I like you! Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]
Regards, Doug L.
1986 33 Bertram FBC Cummins 6BTA's Queen Elizabeth
Marblehead, MA
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Capt. Ed
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Post by Capt. Ed »

Ditto Doug! Besides, I am on the Republican Executive Committee down here and Fund Raising Co-Chairman, so I am just a little bias. [:D] Cheers, Ed 1979 Bertram 33' FBC ALEXANDRA Port Richey, Florida HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR BERTRAM PRIDE '06 yet? DO IT NOW... SPACE IS LIMITED!
1979 Bertram 33' FBC ALEXANDRA Port Richey, Florida Image BERTRAM PRIDE '07 PLAN TO ATTEND!
sbeer
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Post by sbeer »

POLITICS, HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM mIKE
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Post by lobsta1 »

Found out this weekend that 3 of the B28 owners at the Jubilee Yacht club in Beverly, Ma all have ordered new aluminum tanks from some outfit in NJ. Didn't get to talk to any of them personally so don't have any other details. There was a 55' Hatteras next to me this weekend in boston. He was doing some grilling & I told him I wanted mine "Medium rare". Started talking to the guy & he introduced himself as Larry Russo. As in one of the owners of the largest boat dealer chain up here. Larry then said to me "Are you the guy from TV about the ethanol problem" He then went on to say they had delivered hundreds of boats this spring. They ran into a lot of problems. He was upset because NOT ONE of their suppliers; Merc Volvo, Marine Power & PCM had the courage to warn them there MIGHT be a problem filling up with E10 on top of the MTBE fuel. Same with any Gov agency. They got caught with their pants down. In case any one hasn't seen this fom the B31 site; I've copied it over to here. "Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:45 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter, I'm not one of the people you addressed your question to but I hope that perhaps I can help. I am in the process of replacing the glass tank in my '86 Bertram with aluminum. I was planning on taking a "wait and see" approach to the ethanol / fiberglass tank issue since there were so many conflicting pieces of information floating around. Unfortunately, my starboard engine (Crusader 5.7L EFI) which was installed new in Sept 04 and with less than 200 hours on it starting to give me overheat problems which were not resolved by simply replacing the water pump impeller and thermostat. A trip to the authorized Crusader mechanic and a subsequent engine break down revealed the culprit: the engine is loaded with the black goo associated with the fiberglass resins from the tank. This led to valve damage. Since the engines are under warranty, the company that carries the policy for Crusader in years 2 & 3 sent down an adjuster who basically laughed when he saw the engine and denied any warranty compensation due to the effects of the fiberglass resin. That has left me with a hefty engine repair bill (>$3K) plus the cost of the tank replacement. From the research I have done on this topic, I have reached a few conclusions. First, unless your glass tank was made with vinylester resins and you can guaranty that it was, your tank WILL get compromised by the ethanol in our fuel. Some tanks will take longer than others but eventually they will all go. Second, it is not worth the financial risk of playing "wait & see" when you see the cost of the engine repair. Get the tank out now. It will be cheaper in the long run. Although my port engine has not shown any symptoms yet, I am sure that there is accumulation of resin in it too. My plan is to run Startron in virtually every tank of gas I use from this point on. Part of the reason is to help clean out the resin from the port side but more importantly, the Startron has been shown to delay the phase separation that occurs with E10 fuel when as little as 0.5% water is added to it. I can just image the damage that will occur if the boat sits a while, condensation accumulates and water/ethanol separate out and sit on the bottom of the tank. The fuel pick up will pull this pure water/ethanol mix right into the engine wreaking more havoc and necessitating more expensive repairs. If the Startron helps to prevent this, it is well worth the money. No matter how you look at it, it is not a pretty picture for us "gassers". I hope my experience can help you with your decisions on how to proceed. Ken Babylon, NY" ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Al 1978 33 FBC NITES OFF
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franklyprice
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Post by franklyprice »

Al, He's right, it's not a pretty picture for us gassers but it still leaves a lot of unanswered questions for me. Like, is he sure the black goo is from the tank melting or is it sludge dissolved by the ethanol? , Did he mix the old and new gas and let it set for the winter without realizing it? Also, when he mentions the fact that when the new gas gets water in it, it separates , leaving gallons of water/ ethanol at the bottom, if this is going to happen, it's going to happen to every boat out there, regardless of the tank material , it's just a boat issue, not a fiberglass tank issue. This is the problem I'm most worried about, the potential problem of the ethanol mixing with enough water to phase separate from the gas . I would think that if our tanks could tolerate a 10% mix of ethanol, they could not tolerate close to 100% of it setting on the bottom of our tanks for any length of time after it separatews out of the gas. Therefore if we expect to see any reliability out of this crap, the most important thing would be to start with as little water in our tanks as possible and maybe buy gas from dealers that sell a lot of gas , so they get rid of whatever water might find it's way into their tanks. Again, if there is going to be phase separation problems , it will be a problem for us all, no matter what tank material we use. Plus, aluminum will corrode badly if it has mostly pure ethanol mixed with some water setting at the bottom of it. I wouldn't waste my money on an aluminum tank if this is what the problem will ultimately be with this stuff. We could actually see the aluminum replacement tanks fail sooner than some of the fiberglass tanks . How bad would that suck?
Frank Price
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Rowley Ma
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Post by Admin »

To all, regarding the issue of condensation introducing water into the tank. I had read this article by David Pascoe, whom I respect a great deal, and it disputes the idea entirely, yet people speak of it as fact. Give it a read: The Myth of Condensation in Fuel Tanks Any thoughts?
David Sumich
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Huntington Harbour, CA
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franklyprice
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Post by franklyprice »

David, I have read the article and I agree with what he says but when they introduced ethanol into the gas things changed. The ethanol is hygroscopic. The fact that boats have an outside vent to atmosphere will allow some moisture in the air to get into the tank. If you have a tank of gas that is near it's saturation point, it wouldn't take much more water from condensation to put it into phase separation... Maybe a solution would be to close the system like a car vapor recovery system. When you think about it, there really isn't any reason that the gas tank has to vent out to the atmosphere, except the fear of gas vapors in the bilge but if a car can keep the vapors from escaping into the air, I would think that some way of keeping the vapors from collecting in the bilge could be found. I think that the outside vent is just an easy and fairly safe way to deal with venting the tank but maybe with todays technology we could find something better.
Frank Price
1987 SF "Jeanne Claire"
Rowley Ma
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lobsta1
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Post by lobsta1 »

Frank, basically agree with you on the aluminum tanks. As far as the "black goo" the only ones that seem to complain about it are the people that have fiberglass tanks. Every one else complains of gunk, water or the pink jelly clogging filters after some of them have mixed the E10 with the old MTBE. The jelly was what Larry Russo was referring to. As far as the B31 with Crusaders, his homeport is Babylon, L.I. which says to me that his boat has had E10 since 2004. That also suggests that at least with the newer Berts it is more of a long term exposure issue with the glass tanks. Initially I think it will just be a matter of changing filters while the solvent works its stuff. Next for older boats like mine will be changing out the tank. Long term I am most concerned about the separation issue. Like you say, no matter what boat or what type of tank is in it, it has the potential to cause ongoing problems. If I've been reading correctly f/w separators WIL NOT filter out the eth/water mixture. Al 1978 33 FBC NITES OFF
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